I Want To Live In The Real World

Hilary Jeffs Peter, do you believe people can be rehabilitated?

Peter Kinderman I fundamentally believe that people could be re rehabilitated. I fundamentally believe that donating large amounts of money to reform, or indeed any other political party is not the means to rehabilitation.

Hilary Jeffs Hello and welcome to Experience the Weekly podcast where we get to psychoanalyse the news. If you like us are obsessed with the news and also with how people behave and why they tick the way that they do, then this is definitely the podcast for you. I'm Hilary Jeffs, and each week I'm joined by psychologist Professor Peter Kinderman. And this week the headlines that we are gonna be discussing will be Miliband's U-turn on the illegal West Bank settlers and the sanctions that the UK government have imposed. We're also gonna be talking about the crypto kings penchant for the Farage Reform Party. And we'll talk about the dead in the water assisted dying bill. But first, the biggest story, your neck of the woods, Peter Kinderman must have been the local derby that was on Sunday, Manchester City Beating Manchester United. Were you riveted? Were you watching? Were you there in person?

Peter Kinderman No, I was not only there, well, I was there in person in the sense that I was stuck in a traffic jam trying to get to Screwfix because there were too many people going to the football. And I sat there for about five minutes wondering why is there so much traffic? And when I got home I was reminded that there was some thing going on with

Hilary Jeffs Some small

Peter Kinderman as far as it goes

Hilary Jeffs that was pretty insignificant. Well, you know, you don't like football. It goes to show that if you're not even aware that there is such a big local derby going on and it was so full of trials and tribulations, you know, you miss the fact that Haaland is no Samson. And having his hair cut off didn't stop him scoring, even if the setup was slightly dodgy. But this means nothing to you,

Peter Kinderman all of that I'm sure is true. No, that it, well, I'm vaguely aware of the idea of, well, obviously I'm aware of what football's about and I'm aware that there's a footballer called Harlan or Haaland or something who may or may not be Danish or Norwegian and used to have a lot of hair. 'cause you know, you walk down the street and you see discarded newspapers. So Yeah, you're aware of these things, but I'm aware of them in the sense that they mean nothing to me.

Hilary Jeffs They mean nothing to me. Yes, it is time for a song, obviously. Well, I hope s Screwfix or wherever it was that you were going to was equally riveting or perhaps you were buying rivets. What were you up to?

Peter Kinderman Rivets. There you go. There's, there's, there's a, there's a symphony in the poetry of our words.

Hilary Jeffs There is what?

Peter Kinderman No, I was not, I was not turned on.

Hilary Jeffs That was more information than we needed to hear there. Peter. Thank you very much. Right. Moving on to our first headline of the week is of course, the crypto billionaires passion for king making. This is nothing new, is it? Since time immemorial, we have had wealthy, rich people wanting to work out who the next leaders are gonna be, what's going on? Why are these bored billionaires needing to feel the power at their fingertips and get involved in politics the way they do?

Peter Kinderman Well, I'm not sure that this is a psychological analysis so much as a political one, but you're right, it has been going on for years and there's been, there's been legislation about political donations and people have batted backwards and forwards between political donations by trade unions and political donations by individuals for many years. I remember it happening in the, in the Thatcher era. And people were arguing from their biased perspectives that large donations by the trade unions were fine. I personally think they are because you choose to be a member of the trade union and you do tick the box that says, I wish to donate to the political levy and trade. And donations by individuals have, have been criticised because they bias the system. Why? Well, I suspect that as well as power, corrupting power is also very seductive. And I think that people like the idea, especially billionaires, like the idea that through the use of their money, they can manipulate the environment around them. I think that's a very seductive idea. But also, of course, if you're a crypto billionaire and within the EU or for the UK as a, as an independent nation, people are considering, for instance, taxing the profits of people like Amazon at the place at which the profits are made rather than the place at which the company is domiciled. That will be an actual dent to the income of not only the billionaires, but the people that they surround themselves with. So I suspect that there's practical motivation for backing other political parties as well.

Hilary Jeffs Well, both these two crypto billionaires, Christopher Harborne and Delo have said that they don't expect anything back for their money at all. However, what we do know is that they are investing between the two of them, 72 million quid. And this is on top of already sizable donations that they've already made to reform. So in the case of Ben Delo, he says he wants to level the playing field. The reform is such a new upstart that they need some investment to be able to match the intrinsic nature of the conservatives and the Labour Party as part of the fabric of our politics. And then of course you had Christopher Harborne who said that it was his competitive spirit that was activated, that he didn't want Delo to outbid him out, donate him. Just how competitive do you have to be to be a crypto billionaire? 'cause it seemed to me that was really what was going on. And also competitiveness, does it sometimes lead to bad decision making?

Peter Kinderman Well, you mentioned competitiveness and you mentioned sort of the motivations behind these people, but you haven't mentioned that at least one of them is a convicted fraudster who then got pardoned by Trump. So I think that there's bad decision making and there is criminal decision making, and there's motivations that are born out of good intent and motivations where people say, I want nothing from this. But since out of their involvement with the political world, they've all, at least one of those individuals, has already got a pardon for their convictions for fraudulent business practices. I'm a bit sceptical about the idea that they want nothing from it and that their decisions are positively motivated. I don't see that at all. I see at least one criminal fraudulent business person who's benefited personally from their links with politicians, funding links with politicians. I see it all as corrupt.

Hilary Jeffs Well, Ben Delo has made a lot of money, and indeed, you're right. He was plea, he did plead guilty to under the US Bank Secrecy Act for improper disclosure, I think it was, that came under the money laundering laws and then was indeed pardoned. But he himself is someone who says that he believes in philanthropy. He gives away a lot of his money and is pledged to give away, I think half of his money over his lifetime. But I'm wondering whether political donations is actually philanthropy, is that the same as donating to good

Peter Kinderman there's a, I don't think political donations and philanthropy philanthropy are the same. I mean, it doesn't strike me that political activity and charitable activity are the same thing. The other thing is that, you know, there is an issue here where, where you mentioned, you know, he said this and he said this. So he pleaded guilty to criminal activity. There's a full stop in your sentence, but he said the following. Well, I'm sorry. But the first sentence really rather undermines my tendency to believe in the second sentence. So if somebody's been found guilty of fraud, then you say, but he said something. I think it's almost like white noise. It's, it's, he is a convicted fraud.

Hilary Jeffs Peter, do you believe people can be rehabilitated? Do you believe people can say, hold their hands

Peter Kinderman I absolutely,

Hilary Jeffs their time for it?

Peter Kinderman Absolutely. I fundamentally believe that people could be re rehabilitated. I fundamentally believe that donating large amounts of money to reform, or indeed any other political party is not the means to rehabilitation.

Hilary Jeffs Well, that is indeed something that is a rightful thing to be thinking about because, hang on, are you having a beer? You've

Peter Kinderman am, yes. I'm having a beer. I've just had a sandwich. Beer, beer, beer and sandwiches. It's a perfectly respectable left wing political trope. I think beer and sandwiches is exactly what one should be doing when talking about politics. It's beer harks back to the, to the, you know, labour and the, and the unions of the 19 1970s.

Hilary Jeffs Is gonna call you a champagne socialist, are they? Whether you having a beer there, maybe that's what you wanted to do, was to dispel any myths of the sort of champagne. So socialism, I can't even get my words out and I'm not the one drinking, but I am possibly going to go and open one up once I finished this pod, that's for sure. So moving on to Christopher Harborne. He was motivated by his competitive spirit. Talk me through that competitive angle. 'cause we know that like in kids when you watch them grow up and they become competitive, it can lead them to making riskier and riskier decisions. But this is an adult whose competitive nature has made him match. Ben's recent donation of 36 million quid. Talk me through what happens when your competitive spirit takes over and whether you can still make rational decisions. I.

Peter Kinderman And so I think you certainly can. I think that that,. Of the things that it occurs to me in terms of sort of big picture human psychology, is this balance between the tendency to be competitive, which is important and valuable and, you know, a driving force behind human development really. And the need to be cooperative and the, i, you know, the obvious idea that we're social animals and it relates to the idea of life being a zero sum game. So one of the ways in which our competitiveness and the zero sum game ideas come together is the following, which is that if you think that through competition, through yeah, if as a group of friends you are competitive over, I dunno, growing pot plants or cooking eggs Benedict, then by being in competition, the quality of your collective experience will grow. You'll all have nicer pot plants and you'll all have better eggs Benedict. And the competition between you is a good thing because you will all benefit from it. But that's because you're seeing the thing as not a zero sum game. You are thinking that if I have good pot plants and you have good pot plants, then we both have good pot plants. If you start seeing it as, I need to be better than you, so who's won this week, then if I've won, you've lost. And if you've won, I've lost. And it becomes a zero sum game. We can't both win and then competitiveness turns into problem, you know, real problems. And I think that you see this, to be honest, and I am equating this to some of the big picture politics because I think you see this certainly on social media with people's comments about the idea of, for instance, the benefit system, that if we have a generous benefit system, it means that I have got less because I'm a net contributor. And if you've, the shirkers and strivers the idea that some of us put stuff in the idea that, and it happens a lot for people who've made money out of cryptocurrency, out of the internet, and out of a website and social media and so forth, where they call themselves wealth creators, which, which of course literally they're not. What they're doing is moving money from other people's pockets, other people's bank accounts into theirs. And it's very much a zero sum game. You know, if you get access to an A&E slot, I've been deprived in access to an A&E slot. And I think that idea that through competition you are competing with the other person for the limited resources is fundamentally different from it's good to be competitive in the sense of us collectively driving our, our performance forwards. So my query about the competitiveness would be, what do you mean by competitiveness? And my fear would be that those people who are attracted to right-wing politics and who give money to support right wing politics are driven by the sort of competitiveness. That means that one of us is a winner and one of us is a loser and I want to be on the side of the winners. And that's not my sense of competitiveness.

Hilary Jeffs What's quite interesting is that I'm sure time and again, they've proved that trickle down economics doesn't actually work. That actually it's trickle up economics that works. And if you put money in the hands of the many, actually it will go back to the people who are the supposed wealth creators or whatever else. But actually, if you give it all to them or let them keep and amass all this money, it doesn't trickle down to the other people. Yeah.

Peter Kinderman I believe that to be true. Also, also I had a, it reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine where to be honest, their, their brand of politics were slightly boring me on this particular occasion. And they were talking about people who contribute to society and PE and people who, who take from society this again, the zero sum game thing. And it was ironic 'cause this particular person didn't in fact, have a remunerative job. And I thought, that's a little bit ironic in itself. And so I said, yes, and that's good, and this person was quite taken aback. And so, yeah, as a, as a joke, as a provocation, as a tease, as a possibly malicious dig at them, I always go, yeah, because, you know, for instance, if you are a producer, for instance, if you are, you know, a manufacturer of training shoes, then you need people to be buying. And we can't all be producers of training shoes. There must be, I mean, you know, for every one producer of training shoes, there has to be a million purchasers of training shoes. So it is really good that there are more purchasers than providers. It's really good that there are more people doing the buying than people doing the manufacturing. That's the way the economy has to work. In fact, our economy would fall apart if it wasn't for the case that there were more people buying than producing. And he kind of realised that he kind of like me. Obviously I don't understand the economics of it, but he had, he obviously came to the

Hilary Jeffs You both hit an impasse and went, okay, we are stepping back from the economic brink right now. I mean, what I don't

Peter Kinderman but I mean, my view.

Hilary Jeffs But carry on.

Peter Kinderman Well, it's just, there's, there's a scientific perspective on this, which is, as I look at these things from a scientist, I think that, you know, we have things like wheat, you know, as in to grow wheat, to make bread that's 14 or 15 times more efficient at producing food than it was a hundred years ago. I may have got the numbers wrong. The point is still the same. So scientifically in terms of the breeding of biological, you know, food sources, we have technologically become much, much better [unclear] capitalism of what is a way of exploiting that technological advantage. It may be an inefficient way, it may be an efficient way, but it's how we've exploited that advantage. But the advantage hasn't come through capitalism. The advantage has come through better breeding of wheat. And, you know, when it comes to building houses and, you know, the production of construction materials, because of scientific developments, our construction materials are better than they were a hundred years ago, 200 years ago. But capitalism hasn't made the materials better. Science has made the materials better.

Hilary Jeffs Yes. But has that competition, which you have talked about improving things, does that come about because of capitalism more effectively? Now? That is a discussion that is for another podcast on another day. But what I'm quite interested

Peter Kinderman And balanced with community. Balanced with community.

Hilary Jeffs And certainly if you think about the greats, like the Cadburys or... You know, those big manufacturers from years ago, they definitely saw more than just be the shareholder as being king. And they appreciated the fact they were building communities and they needed to have a good workforce and, you know, support them as well. But I'm fascinated by Farage's willingness to be associated with these billionaires when it's gone so horribly wrong in America. It's really quite fascinating to me that, you know, you had Zuckerberg and his whole, you know, move fast and break things, which we literally saw embodied with Elon Musk on a stage with a chainsaw trying to, you know, take apart the budgets of America. It hasn't gone well. Nothing about the news stories coming out of America looks good, feels good, feels safe and secure, and yet it seems that they're trying to take everything from that playbook here. Is it actually going to work with our population and the psyche? And what is it about people who don't necessarily have billions in the bank that makes this so alluring?

Peter Kinderman Right. There's a lot there and there's a bit of psychology and a bit of experience. My experience and a bit of kind of political opinion, and maybe that's what you're looking for. So I think a politically, I think for us as a species, it's bad. Why would Farage want something bad? Because it would be good for him. So whatever has gone on in the playbook of America, it's made Elon Musk rich, it's made well, it made Steve Jobs rich, it made Zuckerberg rich. It's, and whatever has gone on in politics has given the Republicans, you know, Democrat control of the Senate and they've, they've got Trump in as the next president. So it has worked in terms of achieving those aims. And if your interests are to pursue those aims. So if like Trump, and I believe almost certainly like Farage and the donors who support him, if the aim is to win power, not to create a better world, but to win power, then it's brilliant. I mean, it's made the world a worse place, but who gives a damn? Because other people, especially Brown people are dying. They're dying somewhere else. So who cares? I'm in power in charge. Do they think it will make the world a better place? Maybe some of them do, and therefore they believe it's the way to go. I think a lot of them don't care and they're just in it for themselves. But even if they do believe it's the way to go, I personally don't. But I think they probably either don't care or believe it's the right thing to do. I think, will it work with the population? Well, one of the things that I find very interesting is how willing people are, especially my, I mean, I've been to America several times and I've relatives who are American, and I think I know who America is. One of the things that's fascinating is about how willing people in America are to believe in the myth rather than see the reality. So, you know, the movies of America have a lot of wealth and a lot of sort of freedom of movement and a lot of control over people's destinies. And in my experience, it doesn't reflect the reality for the vast majority of people living in America with, you know, we know how many people are dying for want of healthcare. We know how many people are living in poverty. We know the daily routine and of a lot of very, very poor people in America. We know something of the lives of people who are undocumented migrants in America. It's not all like the movies. And yet people believe in the movies. I was once waiting for a long time at a luxury hotel in Orlando, and I was waiting because my conference had finished and I, and I found myself in Orlando and it was just not a very nice place, really. So I thought, well, I'll, I'll just go to the pool and was at this hotel pool waiting for my taxi, and I got chatting to the barman and he turned out he was English and he was from Middlesbrough or somewhere. I went, oh, how'd you find it [unclear]? And he goes, brilliant, brilliant. You should move. It's absolutely brilliant. And I thought, but you're working as a barman in a pool, in a hotel. You know, this isn't the life. I mean, I don't want be rude to barman, but barman in America will be

Hilary Jeffs you are big,

Peter Kinderman something that.

Hilary Jeffs But in a swanky hotel, maybe you're living off really nice tips and you have sunshine, although that with climate change is coming here as well, we'll be competing.

Peter Kinderman Wouldn't be the lifestyle that I would choose for myself or anybody that I cared about. And, but at that point I went, oh, right, okay, so you're doing okay. He goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes, and the thing is, oh God, he goes, Britain. Oh, it's just, oh, it's just a shit heap. No, come to America. It's the, it really genuinely is the land of opportunity. Of course, if you fell down in the gutter, people wouldn't, wouldn't raise a finger to help you. But I don't care. And I thought, yeah, maybe some people do choose that, you know, the sort of ruthless, selfish, and maybe they're so focused on the idea that this is a land in which I can believe in the dream rather than live the reality. But for me, personally, I'd prefer to live looking at the real world and to be honest, knowing the limitations of, I'm gonna, I'm gonna live for another 10 years, and then I'm gonna die. I'm not gonna survive into, into my hundreds. And if I do, I'll be disabled. I'm not immortal, I'm not gonna be wealthy. I, you know, I'm not gonna find myself

Hilary Jeffs I think you might find on average you have longer than 10 more years on this planet, Peter, and we certainly hope so because I expect to be talking to you in at least 20.

Peter Kinderman But my point is, I don't want to believe in a mythical future for myself. I don't want to live in a world where I convince myself somehow I'm going to, not going to die. I don't want to be presented with. It's a little bit like when people have these fantasies maybe, or these, these ideas about having lived previous lives and they always seem to have been princesses. They don't go back to a previous life where they were born, had rickets as a child and ended up as a domestic servant in some sort of North Shetland,

Hilary Jeffs Maybe you self-edit your past lives. Maybe you just self-edit those all the times you're in amoeba. You're like, no, I'm not, not bothering with that. There's nothing to say.

Peter Kinderman Or maybe a healthy dose of reality is good for people. And when you think, I could put aside the ludicrousness of these people's political claims, I could put aside the fact that every single time he's lied to me. But on this occasion, he's telling the truth. Like, the 5,000 pounds that you're gonna get if Trump, blah,

Hilary Jeffs Oh, Trump's 5,000 pound pledge. 5,000 pound dollars,

Peter Kinderman I will convince myself that this 998th time it will come true. If you can live in that sort of world. Well, yeah, maybe, but I don't want to, I want to live in the real world where you look at these things and you think, you know, the, these are pipe dreams. The, these are political promises based on nothing. This is, this is based on a fantasy about the world. I want to live in the real world.

Hilary Jeffs This brings us onto the concept of the week that you found for us. Doesn't it really tell us about the concept of the week. Put your beer down.

Peter Kinderman Well, my, yeah, my fear is that this might be a little bit repetitive from previous things I've said, but the co the concept's called motivated reasoning, where, where people come up with arguments because the conclusions of their people judge the veracity of their arguments on the basis of will it produce the outcome that I want. So people do this all the time where, you know, hi, his motivated and hi. His well motivated and generous Political donation is a, is a bid to improve the life of the nation, whereas her political donation is a shameless self-promotion pledge. You know, his promise on climate change is an aspirational pledge. Her promise on climate change I is a downright lie. This product is worth the money because it's, it's actually high quality and I like to pay for quality. That product is just a waste of money. People do it all the time. And it's a bit related to the idea of cognitive dissonance, that you look at things through eyes, which are biased in order to avoid contradicting yourself. But people, people do do it all the time where people are coming up with arguments where the logical connections suit their purposes rather than follow from the

Hilary Jeffs But this is where we are seeing it all the time, aren't we? With Trump? And in fact, Jacob Weisberg has just brought out Profiles in Cowardice, which is a book about, I think it's the eight people that he thinks are the biggest sort of turncoats around Trump, who suddenly have started sucking up to him. And he was talking about this, he's a psychologist, and it was literally about the fact that they suddenly have to find a way to reconcile their latest position with kowtowing to Trump versus their previous one where they were vilifying him.

Peter Kinderman Yeah, there was a brilliant, brilliant senate, I like to say congressional hearings for people being, you know, placed into office even though they seem to be utterly pointless 'cause pe people get ratified anyway. But there's another good one where, where the senator asked the Trump nominee and the question was would you regard state ownership of food produce stores as a form of socialism and would you oppose it? And he goes, absolutely. It is a form of socialism and I absolutely oppose it. What do you think about Trump owning shares in as president, having shares in food produce stores? Absolutely fine.

Hilary Jeffs Yeah. Yeah. Well, they seem to have not understood

Peter Kinderman it doesn't get you anywhere 'cause he's still probably gonna be bat right.

Hilary Jeffs Well, I mean, it's hilarious, you know, him allowing people or encouraging people to pay for access to his information first coming out on his Truth Social. They will have to definitely shore up some of the legalities around that office after this. Surely you can't have a whole system where the next president is going to just think, oh, I'm gonna keep all of those benefits that Trump has created for us all because otherwise, I mean, their democracy will not come back for decades and decades. But we'll have to see. I think moving on to our second headline, it's the assisted dying Bill. And I'm really interested in your take on this because it was narrowly defeated in the Commons last week. I think the final vote was something like 286 to 269 or something very similar to that. So it was a really narrow one. But the Royal College of psychiatrists have actually sort of spoken out about it, saying that they didn't feel they would have enough time to be able to assess people that sometimes you've got mental illness is a treatable factor when people are terminally ill. But equally that a terminal illness is a risk factor for suicide. And it's such a complicated and such a, an emotive topic. And I know that, there are people passionate on both sides of this debate. So if we take a step back and we look at the psychological impact of that terminal diagnosis, it really is something that is beyond our experience before we get one, isn't it? It is something else. And it must really destabilise us at our core.

Peter Kinderman Yes. Yeah, and there's things that have touched me personally. I've had friends that I've seen die and my fa my both my mother and father died in circumstances not unrelated to the application of the assisted dying bill. My father's death was quite quite dramatic in that sense. And I think about it also myself because, I mean, as I hope I've made clear, I try to live in a world which is real and I see other people's illnesses. And I think it's worth just thinking about how I want to approach my own death. And I absolutely don't want to be left suffering when steps could be taken either by me or, you know, to assist me to end my life. In fact, what I hope is that I'd be brave enough to end my suffering at the right time. My fear is that I would be too scared to take action to end my life, and I would end up having unnecessary and pointless suffering. That's my fear. So I not only support the idea that I, that we should be permitted to choose the nature of the ending of our own life. I want to do that, but I actually think that we need sometimes some help in doing that. And I've seen, like I say, I've seen friends die painfully, and the same with my parents, but I think the Royal College of Psychiatrists is just about right. I think there were, in my mind, concerns about this bill. And I think that we need, I know that people are dying right now in great pain and very great distress, but I do think we need time to think about it. I mean, the issue of death has been with us for a long time. It will be with us for as long as we're alive as a species. And I think that at the expense of those people who need action now, I think a, there were probably things that the government could do as lawmakers to protect doctors, for instance, against various charges that might be followed if they were to help people rather than the assisted dying bill. And I think we need to think very carefully about it. I think that, I have heard elderly people say frequently that they don't want to be a burden to their children. And that's a terrifying thing to hear because I am absolutely sure it's true. And I'm absolutely sure therefore, that it would influence your decision. And I think that that would be wrong.

Hilary Jeffs And I agree with you, it is that whole burdened side because that is one of the cited reasons that people pick for choosing to end their life. And that's, that's such a difficult situation because are you then from making that decision purely from yourself, not really are you, if you are feeling that you are a burden. And my sister has multiple sclerosis and I know that in COVID she was actually really worried that she would be someone that they wouldn't bother resuscitating, despite the fact that she works and, you know, she has a full life and is a carer herself. You know, all of those things still perhaps wouldn't amount to a hill of beans if she'd ended up in hospital with COVID. And I think that that's where a lot of people on the disabled side come at this, is that they would feel perhaps more societal pressure that maybe they're not worth it and we shouldn't be bothering. But that's such a bad society to be living in, isn't.

Peter Kinderman Absolutely. And even if you're in, I mean, that would be, I mean, I'm sure that's true and I'm sure it's happening and I'm sure it's bad when it does happen, but it doesn't even have to be as cute as acute as that. It could be somebody saying, I just think I've become a burden to you. And I think that would, those would be in my, not in my professional view or in, even in scientific view, but in a moral view. I don't think that's sufficient grounds for saying the threshold has been met to assist you in taking your own life. I don't think that's true. So from the psychiatrist's point of view, from my point of view as well, I think we need to think, you know, how do we ensure that those pressures are never there? Now then it brings in people like Rachel Clarke where you say, well, why are people feeling that they've got to take their own life and or why are perhaps more benignly? Why do, under what circumstances would I choose to take my own life? And even then it gets rather complicated because a large part of it is about distress and pain. And when I look at the way that people are cared for, I'm not convinced that literally all has been done to alleviate people's pain. So from personal experience in an extremely well hospice, in fact two experiences, both for my mother and for a friend, I have seen people in hospice care who have had to experience more distress and pain than I thought was reasonable just because of the staffing levels and the time is, and at three in the morning in the best run hospice that you find in the UK is not quite what you would wish for your mother.

Hilary Jeffs No,

Peter Kinderman And there's also, there's also the element that, you know, I know from, you know, the work that we do in psychology, that some people are finding significant alleviation from distress of various kinds in palliative care from both cannabinoids and from psychedelic drugs. But the research is not happening in this country because it's illegal or it's extremely difficult to get the necessary licences in order to do that research. So I'm seeing people who are having extreme negative reactions to food, who I know would have a less distressing experience if they were prescribed medicinal cannabis who are not being prescribed medicinal cannabis. And I'm thinking there is more that can be done in palliative care. There's a lot more that can be done in palliative care. And again, I'm with the Royal College of Psychiatrists here, which is, I think we should only be considering, well, it's not that we should only be considering, we need to be very cautious about assisted dying legislation if palliative care is less than perfect. And I mean the literally, if it's less than perfect, we need to be careful about pursuing legislation. So I think we need to fund palliative care much better.

Hilary Jeffs Burnham says he wants to get a handle on this stuff and on social care. Let, let's hope that he does. And, you know, big shout out to Burnham as well, because he's just lost his father. So, you know, it's a very dis, you know, it's a hard time. We all go through it, but it doesn't make it any less poignant when we do go through it. And this whole talk around assisted dying also can make things even more distressing, can't it? For people?

Peter Kinderman Yeah, so my personal for me personally, I want to, when I develop the terminal illness, that will carry me off and, you know, part of me hopes I have a massive aneurysm and just drop down dead, but I probably won't, I will probably suffer distress and when that happens, yeah, I abs I personally absolutely, definitely yes, want to have the means available to end my life at the time of my choosing, but I'm still worried about the assisted dying bill.

Hilary Jeffs Yeah, I know. And you know, it doesn't matter that it's been implemented in so many countries. I was interested by Oregon, 'cause it was one of the first places who did introduce assisted dying in 1997. So we've had nearly 30 years now, and actually in 30 years, I think they said it was five and a half thousand people who've received a prescription for a lethal dose with 3,691 deaths. So it's about one in three, get the prescription and then decide not to use it. But then you've got it contrasting in Canada, where now more than one in 20 deaths are assisted dying, which that's why they get sort of said as this is the slippery slope because they've moved it on from a terminal illness and they've moved it on to incurable diseases. They have pulled back from mental distress, which is where they were heading. They have stopped that now. But it is, it is definitely something that we'll have to see. I mean, obviously with Jersey, they just had their law ratified where they actually, instead of taking your own pill, that it is that professionals will be able to help inject a lethal dosage on people. But that also raises questions around the psych, the psych, the wellbeing, the psychological wellbeing of people who are helping and assisting in that way.

Peter Kinderman Yes. Yeah. And yeah, and it's, yeah, it's, it's, the whole thing is obviously distressing and disturbing because these are things that are, are, are unpleasant to think about. But I, you know, I mean, I have to admit that part of me, I, while I very, very much want to have this kind of opportunity for myself, I do wonder about the idea of entering a hospice and somebody's a well-meaning nurse coming to me with a form and saying, you know, when would you consider it be appropriate to, is just mean a bit like, is it George the fifth or George the sixth, where, where the doctors were timing when to give the massive morphine injection in order to avoid his death being in the Sunday papers, because that was too lowbrow for them. I'm just thinking, you know, Peter, how, how's the pain? It's just, it's just we've got our lunch in 15 minutes, so if you could kind of like top yourself just before

Hilary Jeffs now that gets into a really, really controversial subject about morphine and about hastening the end of life and whether it actually does, and there's lots of palliative care people who are saying that the fact that people are worried about it. Hastening death means that people aren't getting enough morphine when they actually need it. So that is definitely a subject for us to come back to, I think. But moving on, our final headline is actions Speaking Louder than Words. We've had Miliband going out of his way to talk about being a proud Jew last week, and at the same time slapping some sanctions on the illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Now you could say this is long overdue and what the public have been crying out for is a little bit of action. What were your thoughts on

Peter Kinderman Yeah. My view on it is, thank God we got some kind of adult serious leadership here, which is Yeah. Part of, part of the issue about, Keir and in fact, the most cogent criticism of Keir that I heard was coming from people who certainly left leaning and probably labour supporters who say that they were worried about his lack of firmness when it came to standing up for human rights in Gaza and sort of

Hilary Jeffs Though he did recognise the two state the state didn't

Peter Kinderman yeah, it did,

Hilary Jeffs which

Peter Kinderman and I'm not particularly critical. Sure. But, you know, that that was a cogent criticism that I heard. And when they announced that they were going to put sanctions on produce grown or manufactured in on occupied land, I thought, well, yes, and it brought me back to the 1980s and about sanctions, well boycotts on South Africa and apartheid goods and those ideas. And I see some equivalences there. It actually rem and so I think, yes, I think that, you know, for me personally, I don't want to buy or consume products grown on illegally occupied land. Now I recognise that there are debates to be had, and sometimes we have to kind of trust the systems that are out there to give us some guidance on this. But I don't want to buy produce made on illegally occupied land. And it strikes me that there is produce coming through the state of Israel

Hilary Jeffs it's about 1%

Peter Kinderman occupied lands. And I Right.

Hilary Jeffs So.

Peter Kinderman The inter, but there is an interesting twist to this, which is, so one of the things I really, really liked was the idea that this is not a boycott on Israel. It's a boycott on produce from illegally occupied lands. And that's quite clear. And I quite like Miliband's comments of separating out Judaism as a, as a cultural identity from illegality of the settlements. It reminded me of many years ago, I was, this is before all of this happened. I was probably in a bad mood, but I was in Manchester City Centre and, I stopped

Hilary Jeffs Day of the week, was it? Oh, it has a day in it. I'm in a bad mood. Sorry, Peter. Sorry you stopped outside. Marks and Spencers.

Peter Kinderman So, because there was a protester and so me being me, I did the naive bit of going, what's a protest? And, you know, you get surrounded by like three people because they've, they've, they've got somebody. So I said, so they said, we've asked you to boycott Mark and Spencers because this was, this was 15 years ago because they've got produce grown on West Bank, illegally occupied land. And I know the issue. I went, right, right, right. Get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So does it have markings on it to say where it's coming from? And the person didn't know. So I said, okay. Right. So, and you're asking, and he goes, no, we're asking you to boycott Marks and Spencers. I went, well, maybe if I can't tell, which is West Bank Produce and which is non-West Bank produce, maybe. Yeah, I could, I could get the argument that I should not buy Israeli produce. He goes, no boycott marks and Spencers. I went, why? And he goes, marks and Spencers are, are, are buying in. I went, right. But the issue here, I mean, I knew what he was saying, but I went, the issue here is, and then lean over and he goes, they're just Jews.

Hilary Jeffs Oh

Peter Kinderman And I thought, well, there you go.

Hilary Jeffs Yeah. No, I

Peter Kinderman the idea of going, why are we doing this? Exactly. Liked Miliband. 'cause he goes, what we're doing is we're saying that we shouldn't permit because with the government, we shouldn't permit the import of material that's grown on illegally occupied land. And

Hilary Jeffs I mean, he was very careful wasn't he

Peter Kinderman very difficult to argue with. And that's pretty good.

Hilary Jeffs To make clear that this was about the Israeli government and about the settlements and not about, Jewish people. And I'm wondering actually what it will do, because the chief rabbi, they were talking about how this is sort of a dark day for Judaism, how it's going to give people carte blanche to attack Jews more on the street, which is absolutely abhorrent. And we've had enough attacks that's happened in the last year or two, that I really don't ever want to see any of the rise of that at all. But whether now people see the government making decisions and taking steps, will it actually curb some of the violence? Or will people who are pigheaded enough to be antisemitic and to cause violence against people just because of their religion? Are they gonna carry on regardless?

Peter Kinderman Motivated reasoning. Again, it, why, why are you arguing this? Why are you formulating your argument in the way that you are? Why are you choosing to emphasise some facts rather than others? Why, why so? Yes, I think, I think it might, I think the chief rabbi may well be correct in the sense that any steps that move to towards condemnation of Israeli policies in the Middle East might motivate people towards antisemitism. I think that's conceivably true. And I think one of the things is that that's why the clarity of, you know, what is it that we're sanctioning, I mean, I mean, the same would be true for anything, which is basically what you're sanctioning is illegal activity. And in this particular case, this class of illegal legal activity by those actors, and focusing on that I think would be good. I think that if they've got any common sense, the government, what they should do is maintain that line and explain it and develop it rather than trying to do anything else and sort of backtracking from it or equivocating. And I think it's a good line. I think it also serves the purpose of separating out, for those of us on the political left, the condemnation of the acts of the current government, of the state of Israel from antisemitism.

Hilary Jeffs Absolutely, and

Peter Kinderman part of it is what is really good is if, and in this case, the major European countries have not only a policy and a statement, but also an action that follows that clear demarcation.

Hilary Jeffs Right on that note, we are gonna end it for today. Peter, thank you very much for your contribution. We do just have time for your tip to try. This is our bite-sized nugget that will help you live in a more fulfilled way, we hope as we romp through the week towards next week, another step in Autumn. Oh, autumn. I love Autumn. Is the trip, the Triple T got anything to do with Autumn? Just on the off

Peter Kinderman No, it is got to do with motivated reasoning.

Hilary Jeffs Good.

Peter Kinderman We is just, just try to arguing it, argue it from the other point of view. You know, if you are in the defence lawyer position, try arguing it from the prosecution lawyer's position and vice versa. Try, try thinking to yourself, what would I say if I was motivated for a different outcome? So what would I say if I thought it was a great shame that the assisted dying bill were knocked down? What would I say if I were to support reform in accepting this money? And, you know, we can, we can think of it, you know, look at the money coming from the unions. The need for political activity, the idea of waking up the country, the idea that we want cha you can think of all the arguments and it's good for your brain. As long as you have a nice calming cup of camomile tea afterwards. And then

Hilary Jeffs or a glass of beer I think is definitely an order. I'm gonna be going to pour one of those for myself. Very nice too. That's very good. And as my mother used to say, you have to walk in someone else's shoes before you judge them. I guess it's a similar sort of thing. Alright, well, until next week, Peter, I hope you have a lovely week and a couple more of those beers as well.