What Number 10 Does to You

Hilary Jeffs Hello and welcome to Experience the New Weekly podcast where we get to psychoanalyse the news. We take those news headlines and we put them on the psychologist's couch. I'm Hilary Jeffs, and each week we are gonna be joined by Michael Gove. Close your ears. A genuine expert in the form of Peter Kinderman. Peter is a clinical psychologist. He was also the president of the British Psychological Society. Peter, why did you want to psychoanalyse the news?

Peter Kinderman hi Hillary. Well, I mean, basically as a psychologist I got involved in all sorts of things of practical value, especially with individuals who are going through challenges that affect their mental health. And then when I got involved with the British Psychological Society, ended up becoming its president and negotiating with policy makers about a whole range of things, not only mental health, but wider in society. And to be honest, I loved it. I liked the application of my particular branch of science to solving human problems, and I believe it has something to offer. So I think, yeah, we can have a different perspective. It's not the only perspective that matters, but it is a perspective that does matter. So.

Hilary Jeffs I agree. I mean, from my point of view, I am a news junkie. I've spent my whole life in communications and working in the media and advising clients on how to get their message across more effectively. But even I've reached peak news. I'm finding that the constant news cycle, the doom and gloom, catastrophic events, war, famine, the giant Orange Trump baby in America has actually made news quite stressful for me. But my saving grace has been listening to podcasts because somehow we're taking a step back and actually us having a rational intellectual conversation about what's going on makes me feel that it's okay. It hasn't all gone completely wrong just yet. What's the psychology behind that, Peter?

Peter Kinderman Well, I think we are living in times that are quite new. I mean, it, it's unprecedented I think, in human history that there's been so much communication so rapidly. we are, we are now hearing stories about arrests and criminal proceedings while police officers are still in their cars going to secure crime scenes. and that might be good, you know, there might be some elements of democracy in the sense of we as citizens are participating in real time with the news events. It might be quite good that we all carry, carry high definition cameras. It might be quite good for the police that we all carry, as in they may well not get away with so many dodgy practises if we're all carrying devices that capture evidence. But nobody's really come to terms with it. And just when you were talking a little bit earlier about all the doom and gloom on social media and, and the various ways in which we access the news, there's also an awful lot of lying out there. I mean, people simply tell, tell lies and they spin the truth in, in ways which need unpacking. I particularly like the BBC's, you know, very verify service where you take something and they, they go into in detail, is this video real? Is this AI generated? And so forth. So I think we live in very unprecedented times for, in a sense, the evolution of human society. And it's overwhelming. We dunno what to trust.

Hilary Jeffs Yeah, I think that's a good point. Talking about the headlines being, quite big sports news and No, I'm not gonna talk about the football, Peter, because I know that that is not your bag.

Peter Kinderman I, I was, I was in a Spanish tapas bar last night watching Spain win. So, so I'm slightly hungover, but very happy. That was lovely.

Hilary Jeffs Well, I have to say the final was not a patch and what the real final was, which is of course the third payoff for, US against France where there was a 10 goal match brilliancy. Anyway, I said, no football, we're not talking football even though I have really enjoyed the World Cup. But there was another sporting event that happened on Friday, and that was the breaking of the one minute, one minute, the one mile fastest time, seventh Brit to actually take this title. Now, there's something about British people being able to run fast over a mile. Is it because it's kind of not too long, not too short. It's just kind of in the middle. It, it appeals to our sensibilities. Do you think?

Peter Kinderman Well, that's possibly true. being serious. There's quite possibly the case that, coaching and the experience of older, wiser mentors has meant that young athletes are really, really good, not because they live in this particular country, and not precisely because somehow we in some sense have a tradition. But it might be that our coaching system is really good. So we're picking out kids in schools that have got potential and that we've got the experience and wisdom of years in order, in order to pick it, pick it out. There's also something, great Britain, sort of northwestern Europe is quite interesting because, it, it, it seems to foster, like, like living in a temperate zone in terms of the geography. It seems to foster being reasonably good at quite a lot of things, which is a nice place to be. Apparently there was a guy in ancient Greece whose name was beater, whereas his nickname was beater 'cause he came second at everything. So he, like, when, when there was an athletics competition, he came second, so didn't record his name when there was a poetry competition. He came second. He was like the second, second richest man in, in Athens. And so they called him beater.

Hilary Jeffs There are worse places to be than second

Peter Kinderman exactly, so then it is like they're always debating him, which is like, would you want to be beater and never quite winning at everything? Or, or would you like to be beater and being really, really good at loads of things? And it's a, it's a toss up. I think being, being averagely decent is quite good, really.

Hilary Jeffs Kerr has broken a record that has stood for 27 years. It was last set in 1999 and he beat it by half a second, so it went down to 3, 4, 2. And his total preparation for this was that he was taking ice baths that lasted three minutes and 42 seconds, that he was writing down and manifesting. I am going to run a mile in three minutes and 42. Now, was it that that clinched him this new world title or was it the fact that he had new aerodynamic kit from his sponsors and special trainers? Which do you think it might be manifesting or technology?

Peter Kinderman So I, my, my, my ultra cynicism says I remember Lance Armstrong and the Tour de France, and there's always a possibility that it's stimulants taking that aside, don't want to kind of cast Eddie aspersions to people. I then go trainers technology. I then think training. But I think there's something very interesting about the idea of visualising what happens. So sports psychology, I, I was never a sports psychologist, but of course in, in my job I've represented sports psychologists and for elite athletes, the idea of visualising what you are about to do is absolutely what they're encouraged to do, what the athletes are encouraged to do. So, footballers taking penalty kicks are encouraged to visualise the ball hitting the back of the net in exactly where they want. And the, not the logic, but the science of it is that effectively their body will follow through with their actions. Golfers, a lot, they're visualising where the ball's going. There's a couple of reasons for that. I mean, I mean, kind of one element of it is that if it's very difficult to practise moving your fingers, so if I reach out to pick up a coffee cup, I'm not thinking curl my left index finger or in this case, right, index finger, 42 degrees, wait until there's pressure on the pulp of my fingertip then stops. I mean, I, I can't control in that way. What I gotta think of is, the coffee's quite hot. I don't want to burn my lips. So you're, you are controlling for your actions are quite a high level. So what these athletes are doing is, is they can't make their muscle fibres twitch. But what they can do is visualise the outcome of their actions and that may very

Hilary Jeffs a genuine thing to try and do then that actually could help me run a three minute 42 file.

Peter Kinderman might be even better than this. So this is, this is the sort of things that, that make fellow scientists get really angry at you when you mention them on, on podcasts. But there, there have been some papers produced where, if you get people to visualise certain motor actions, then they actually have an effect at the muscular end of the body. So it, it leads to the suggestion that it, it's possibly even the case that thinking about exercise is in a very small sense, a bit of exercise and it makes sense. What you've

Hilary Jeffs you are my.

Peter Kinderman system from the brain. Just it goes

Hilary Jeffs are my new best friend. I'm gonna be thinking about exercise for the rest of the day, and if I haven't lost weight by next week, you are in serious trouble. You know that, don't you?

Peter Kinderman But that, that, because there's, there is also another thing, which is another kind of serious point, but kind of, it, it leads to various conclusions. So the in, in humans, the brain takes 25% of our energy. the reason for that is when we have thoughts, the, the neuros depolarize and you get the electrical signals. And then what the body has to do is, has to suck all of those neurotransmitters back into the, and, and, ions, the, the electrically charged particles back into the nerves. And it takes huge amounts of energy to, to suck all of these chemicals back into the neurons. And we're doing it a billion times a second. So there's a lot of energy use in the brain. And the brain uses 25% of the body's energy requirements. And 25% of your calorie intake is a lot, which rather suggests if you do more thinking, you'll lose weight.

Hilary Jeffs Right. That's obviously been my mistake this whole time. I just need to engage more in thinking, cryptic crosswords. Here we come. other stories in the news include Claudia Winkleman stepping down from her chat show after one series, despite having, you know, reasonable viewers about 2 million because she's too nervous. And I just found this so refreshing that someone has actually stuck their hand up and said, do you know what? I don't feel comfortable doing this. This is not fun anymore for me. it's really a rare thing for people to actually admit when they're nervous, isn't it?

Peter Kinderman Yes. And, I mean, there's, there's always this, this idea that bravery is not having any fear. Well, of course, bravery is having fear and doing it anyway. yeah, I think that, people also aren't very honest. that, you know, everything's super, everything's fine, everything's beautiful, and various people for various reasons cover up human insecurities and so forth. I think also there is another element that, you know, I, I'm not oay with the stars and I'm commenting on other people's lives, and if I've get it in any way wrong, then I apologise. But materially, people like Claudia Winkleman have done quite well for themselves. I'm, I'm sure you've gotta think of it to, to yourself of what is it, what need is this driving? So, if you, thinking hard about your pension and thinking, I can't really afford to live this lifestyle. If I give up this job, then you'll be forced to turn up to work every day. If on the other hand, it would, you know, you and your family would be materially perfectly well off if you just took your foot off the gas. If you're not enjoying it, don't do it. Why? You know, why? Be under the pressure of agents and TV executives to do something that isn't your bag.

Hilary Jeffs Well, and indeed that really does just make us think about all these people who are ultra famous, ultra successful, who keep going. They still have a drive. There's something inside of them that really is moving them forward. Is that from an insecurity place or is that genuinely from a, I need to achieve? Where do you think people's ambition comes from?

Peter Kinderman I think, I genuinely think, I know it's a glib answer, but I think it's different for different people. I think a lot of people carry on working at their preferred vocation because it's genuinely wonderful for them. It comes back to that Japanese idea of, you know, do something that you enjoy that other people think you're, you are good at that does something positive for the world and you get paid for. And if you're in that sweet spot of those four things, you carry on doing it. I mean, people, people like David Atterbury, I mean, seem to be very good at it. People enjoy it. It does something good, and he enjoys it. so I think people who are in that sweet spot will carry on for what I would personally, for myself, see as the sorts of reasons that they, you know, that, that I would value. I think sometimes other people get caught up a little bit where if I was to make a judgement about their life, I would say that they need to think about what their fundamental goals are. So the accumulation of money doesn't strike me as necessarily a goal that is going to make people happy. I think the idea of accumulating money to pass on to your children, I can get that, but, you know, carry on working even though it's not rewarding, but carrying on, carrying on because you feel you must, personally, I think there'd be some value in thinking about what your ultimate game, goal is. So I think it depends on the individual.

Hilary Jeffs Yeah. And I once was speaking to a palliative care nurse and she said there has not been one person who she sat with whilst they were dying, who has lamented their career. It's always been about their friends and their family and what they wish they had done and spent more time, which was doing those things, not earning a little bit more money.

Peter Kinderman yeah, although the absolutely a hundred percent agree, and I, I haven't met anybody who said, you know, I wish I'd earned my boss a bit more profit. That, that, you know, I, I really think that United Utilities need, need to clear their debts quicker. That's why I turn up to work. It seems unlikely, but I think there are people, artists, definitely creative people, people making music, people making drama, people certainly creative. But I think also, scientists, I mean, I, I retired from working at the university, but I know that many of my friends carry on working in more or less the same way that they've worked before because they're genuinely, they genuinely enjoy it. It's, it's something that motivates 'em. And then the idea of retiring seems like giving up and nobody likes to give up. my attitude's slightly different in that I don't think I'm giving up on anything. I, I just think I've gotta spend more time doing the things that I enjoy. But if it seems like an important part of your life has to be given up and, you know, and you are wrapping the paintbrushes up in, in oil cloth and you're never gonna be able to go back to that. Yes, I could see that. And for a lot of people.

Hilary Jeffs your university's loss is our gain because you retiring from University Life means that you can join us every week to discuss the news headlines, which is eminently

Peter Kinderman you very much.

Hilary Jeffs I note that Fat Cap bosses, FS E 100, CEOs have actually got now a median pay that is 130 times the average full-time wage in the uk, which I found absolutely astonishing. but that perhaps also gives a reason why some people just carry on working because after all, if you are getting an average pay of 5 million quid a year, Hmm, what's one more year? 5 million quid. Very nice. I'll take that. Thanks very much.

Peter Kinderman yeah. On the other hand, if you had 5 million pounds, you could probably fund a really, really, really good lifestyle for the rest of your life and

Hilary Jeffs Yes.

Peter Kinderman little bit more equitably.

Hilary Jeffs though, you know, billionaires are the new millionaires. Peter, you need to catch up. I mean, unless you are a hundred billionaire, you are not anybody, are you? I mean, that's just the world that we live in, which is kind of a bit amazing that we live in such an unequal society and, and that we tolerate it.

Peter Kinderman Well, I don't think we should tolerate it. I think it's, all the sciences that it's extremely bad. If I, if I were that wealthy, then I would be worried. And you see that people are worried. I mean, I mean billionaires of course, higher security and so forth, but also get involved in politics in order to protect their station in life. And, yes, it's because it's inherently, unequal and thing. I mean, a bit like balance in nature, things that are unequal are likely to last for long. So I, I think that, an unequal society, I mean, I, I know that I'm, the reason why I'm hesitating is 'cause I know that I'm channelling Marx, but I'm channelling Marx a, a society that that is, that unequal will have to put in place restrictive measures in order to protect that inequity, which will cause damage. And I think it'll cause damage not only to poor people, but also the rich people. I think also from a completely different, area of sociology and psychology, being that wealthy does not necessarily make you that happy. There is a clear, unequivocal link between being sad and being poor. But once you stop being poor, there isn't a clear link between being much wealthier and becoming much happier. The, the curve level's off.

Hilary Jeffs Which of course people don't, think do they, they think, I want to win the lottery. I wanna win the Euro lottery because that's 109 million, not just, you know, three in, on a Wednesday in the uk whichever day it is. I don't do the lottery. But you know, it is that whole idea that you think you would be so wealthy and so happy if you won.

Peter Kinderman And the maths are, are, are ruthless, which is, I mean, effectively sort of plucking representative figures outta the air. You know, if you are already moderately well off, well off, well enough off that if your boiler broke, you could get a new boiler, then doubling your income is not going to double your happiness. Doubling your income will increase your happiness statistically by a tiny amount. And if you were to fall off a ladder and break your ankle, your happiness would go down by a hundred times the value of your increased salary. And so, I mean, it's, it, it isn't fair to say that, that the curve curves down at the end. Richer people tend to have a few more resources. They tend to have more control in their life. So it's not the case that more money is bad, it's just that more money doesn't really make that much difference.

Hilary Jeffs Yeah, and you're exactly right about your physical health and your mental health when it comes to your wellbeing. I remember hearing a novelist being interviewed and they'd had cancer and they described sitting, looking out their window, onto the street and looking at all these miserable people going past, and she was like, why are you so miserable? You've got your health. Look at you. Of course, she didn't know what was going on in the world, but we actually do take physical health for granted quite often, don't we?

Peter Kinderman I think we, we take a lot of things for granted. We take physical health, we take our families, we take being surrounded by people who care for you. you know, I, we, we take a lot of things that are fundamentally important to our wellbeing for granted. I, I was, I, I was thinking about the, the new Prime Minister and I was reflecting on one of the things that I passionately look forward to, which is nationalising the, the water industries. And I think, you know, we, we take for granted having clean drinking water,

Hilary Jeffs We absolutely do. Now, you have just brought up the biggest news story of the week. Not yet the new Prime Minister, because we are recording this nine o'clock on Monday the 20th of July. And it's not until probably just after lunch when Andy Burnham is gonna walk through the doors at number 10 to be handed, you know, the nuclear codes and all that sort of governs. I mean, really, it's such an immense job. This man who is taking over as a British Prime Minister, he is gonna be the fifth one in five years, which is going some. Thanks. Well done Britain, you're, you're doing really well there. fifth one in five years, walking in to Downing Street. This is such a big change, isn't it? He is not only going to be changing his job, he's likely gonna be changing where he lives, despite rumours that there is going to be a number 10 of the north, which you will be very pleased with no doubt, Peter, but,

Peter Kinderman Yep. Excellent.

Hilary Jeffs how is he gonna cope with such stress? I mean, it's not just changing any old job, is it? It is walking into the biggest job.

Peter Kinderman Yeah. And it's, I think it's very difficult for people like me to imagine it. 'cause I've never been, well, I've been physically close, but I'm, I've never been in any way been, considering taking on those sorts of responsibilities. And, you know, there were responsibilities that we vaguely know about from history and from movies, that involve decisions about, you know, life and death for people. So yeah, I think it's extremely, extremely stressful. I, I think there are, there are a couple of, important answers. I mean, one of which is that, even within British politics and the idea of, you know, leadership elections, it, it is genuinely about a team, not only of cabinet ministers and the Parliamentary party, but also civil servants. and, what I want from a prime minister and that, I mean, you know, my politics are to the left, but I've seen it with some conservative prime ministers and I've seen the exact opposite from other conservative prime ministers. And I think there were difficulties on the left, under Blair and Brown when I was growing up. But what I want is, is a Prime Minister who can pull all of those skills together. I mean, there are people who've dedicated their lives to ensuring that we don't suffer in a pandemic. And Andy Burnham doesn't have to make decisions about the right way to protect us from a new variant of some airborne zoo tropic virus. He needs to coordinate a public health service that can protect us. So it's, so, it's about team working and about leading a team of people, including people from entirely outside politics in including people in the security services. And I think when it comes to the stresses of the job, what I believe, and I have a little bit of personal evidence for this, just from knocking around Whitehall, but what I hope is that parts of the civil service are there where, you know, politicians know that they're personally safe. They know that, that their family is safe. They know that the kids will be picked up from school. They know that if they have to be at a particular place, then somebody will make the necessary arrangements. And I think that includes moving house, which is, you know, if Prime Minister you want your family to be a number 10 Downing Street by Wednesday, we will make that happen. If you want them to stay where they are, we'll make sure that works too, that that's what you would look for so you can clear that issue from your head and get on with the other stuff that people are pestering you.

Hilary Jeffs we had, a civil service that managed to survive the Liz Trust Premiership. So I'm sure we have a civil service that can, and an infrastructure that will support him in that job. But imagine walking through those that door, walking into the cabinet room, meeting with the cabinet secretary, being briefed on the security issues. Rishi.

Peter Kinderman stop. Don't this, this was a fantasy of mine when I was an adolescent. I don't, I don't wanna be reminded of fantasies that I've now lost. I've lost, like, running a three minute mile. There's no chance of me being Prime Minister now, and I, I, I need to, I need to successfully give up that fantasy and move on. It is painful.

Hilary Jeffs frankly Peter, it cannot be worse than the lady who did not survive a lettuce. Everything will be fine. I reckon, you know, if Andy has a really bad, election in a couple of years time, we could be calling for Peter to be president. Oh, sorry. Prime Minister.

Peter Kinderman well, president will do, you know, we'll declare a republic. I mean, I mean, I've, I've never, I've never really been a monarchist, so, yeah. I'll, I'll be president for life. Sorry. I shouldn't have slipped that in at the end. yeah. well, hmm. I mean, if you're gonna be political, I, I think there are worries. I think Burnham needs to consolidate the vast bulk of sensible British citizens to rebuff the populist. Right. I, I think that they need to be put back in their slightly fringe bin a little bit, and literally, in the case of Clapton.

Hilary Jeffs there was actually a big fringe bin, well still quite small. Liz Trus hosted her own cpac, you know that American sort of hard right, conference. She had one of her own in London. I mean, how they all survived coming over to London when everyone knows in America that London is just a no go zone and it's just, you're gonna get stabbed as soon as you step out of your hotel. But she did manage to, to get some people to go and talk. How many she got to go and listen is another matter. But we need to get back to Auntie Burnham. This is the big story of the day we're getting a new prime minister. How is he going to cope with the stress? What is he gonna do? Because we've seen lots of people who've had really good jobs actually feel very constrained by the job title. I remember talking to a former political editor of the Sunday Times around the time when there was all the may and who's gonna take over from the conservative leader and who would make a good leader. And I said to this guy, I said, tell me who do you think should be the next leader of the conservative party? And they said, Osborne. And I was really shocked that they said Osborne. They said, no, he's like a really good Johnny fellow. He is like really personable. he's on it, he's witty, he's in charge of, you know, what he thinks and he knows what he's doing. And I was flabbergasted because him as chancellor I found actually really wooden and really stiff. And I think he felt very constrained by that role. And then sure enough, once he left, you know, and he went to being, editor, I think of the evening standard, didn't he? In London. And he's now the, chairperson for the British Museum. He's also got his own, sorry for the po adultery, but his own podcast with Ed Balls. and you can see that charisma. But the job seemed to cow him. The job seemed to make him not comfortable and unable to be himself. Is Andy Burnham gonna be able to get over the expectations that we have of what a PM looks like and what they sound like to actually be able to embrace his authentic self? 'cause I think that's what the electorate need and want, isn't it?

Peter Kinderman I, I think it is what, well, certainly what they need. I think it's what, certainly those who, who form the majority in the House of Commons want, which is his immediate constituency. yeah, I think, I think it's what we need. I, I, I think it's possible, and I think it's possible in the case of Andy Burnham. So one of the reasons that you, you gotta think why is it that people, change when they're, they're in office and change when they're out of office? And it's, it is of course, the case that what they're doing is they're meeting the demands of people who, in some way or another have power over them. Liz Trusts, was always complaining about the civil servants pointing out things like, I dunno, pie does not equal four. And she'll go, well, what, you know, what we need to do is we need to, we need to just stop pretending that the, that the world is warming by the output of greenhouse emissions. And the civil servants would say, yeah, I'm sorry, prime Minister, but it's a fact. And she'd get very, very upset because other people's agendas pointing out literal facts. I'm sorry, prime Minister, but what you've done with the economy has caused a problem. Don't tell me it's caused a problem. It's caused a problem. So the fact that people are coming to you with agendas that impinge on yours is the issue. I think in the case of, starer, obviously he got into difficulty in the sense that he wasn't any more carrying forward as strongly as he might have done the ambitions of the Labour Party. I think Burnham seems to be in a strong position. His nomination was literally signed by, I think 380 mps. But yeah, all all apart from 82, I think. And I think putting your name to somebody's nomination is, is, I mean obviously there's a little bit of performative arts to it, but I think he's got quite a body of support. So then you've gotta think, well, for Burnham, what he's doing is he's coming in where his agenda and the agenda of the people in his immediate support group are very closely aligned. That gives him the strength to move forward. So it is not the case that when he's in office, he's shackled. He's not shackled by the parliamentary Labour party. The parliamentary Labour party seemed to be, supportive of him. I don't

Hilary Jeffs I've just looked at the figures. It was 379 who actually did support him over 403, mps. So only, you know, 24 decided no. Yes. 24 decided not to do that. I did maths as my degree, and yet still a little bit of basic arithmetic can always tripped me up. so yes, you're right. He has got people behind and it's worth him remembering today. He's probably got the most power he's gonna have today than he will have until if he does win a landside election next time. Today is the sweet spot, isn't it? He's got, as you say, he's got to sort out that team. So he's gonna go and he's gonna be sorting out his cabinet later on today. Tell me, how do people build a good team? What is the psychology behind building a good team? What are the ingredients? What do you need?

Peter Kinderman So, I mean, you, you have to bear in mind that I, I've, I've been on senior management training courses, which I have to confess probably cost my university an awful lot of money. and I was always really stroppy, on them. And,

Hilary Jeffs Oh, I love training people like you, Peter. We'd have a blast.

Peter Kinderman the, the, the, they, the, the, the traders suggested that they really liked me, and they thought I had a very good brain that wasn't suited to senior management because I was basically a maverick. it, it came to a point where they were asking us to do the battle scene from Henry the V in order to give us charisma in leading teams. And I said, just a question before I do my battle scene from Henry the V, do you want me to do Henry the v the, fictionalised, creation of a playwright, trying to please an Elizabethan stroke, Jacoby and Monarch with some sort of zas jingoism? Or do you want the real, mass murdering, war criminal? Which of the, they said, Peter, we just want you to, anyway. so

Hilary Jeffs the sorts of activities people get up to on corporate days and, and I train people on how to communicate more effectively, but really there are some tricks and track that you just don't need to have and,

Peter Kinderman So I.

Hilary Jeffs would not have ever got you doing that 'cause that would be a recipe for disaster anyway. Which one did you go for? Which version?

Peter Kinderman I, I, I, I did the Shakespearean version on the grounds that there was a script in front of me. And I dunno what the, the murdering, serial killing, war criminal real version, nobody does 'cause nobody. Anyway. so the, the trick, the trick for it, well, I don't think there were games that you can play. I think it, I think it's really straightforward. So again, I think for, for Burnham, what he needs to do is to say, look, we've got, we've got a parliamentary party that was elected on a manifesto. Let's find those elements of the manifesto that we all agree on. If you need to make difficult decisions, you can put to one side the areas where we haven't got as much it hasn't been thought through, we can set up, he, he's got the power to do you set, you said a second ago, he's got enormous power now. He can set up a commission of somebody or other to push forward or, or to give advice on how to push forward on a bit of the manifesto. And he can push forward on a bit of a manifesto. He can appoint somebody who's really keen on the bit of the manifesto, and then it gets enacted. He can put forward somebody in a, in, let's say, health Secretary, who's a little bit sceptical about part of the manifesto, and they can review it so he can, he can shape it. But what he, what I think you need to do is to have a group of people who are working to a shared agenda. So what you, what he needs to do is to say, what is the, what is the policy of the Labour Party and therefore government at this point in time, where are we wanting to be now? What do we wanna do immediately? Where do we want to be in five years time? I think effectively they're gonna be saying, how can we make sure that we win the next general election? When, when you agreed on your basic strategies, then you have a group of people who share that aim. And then the second point is you hope they're not gonna stab you in the back. And that's the second bit, which is that it is about constituencies and it's about who your friends are, and it's about who you bring as a group of people. So what he

Hilary Jeffs your enemies clo, keep your friends closer and your enemies even closer. Is, is that what you're doing? I mean, should he be looking actually for building a team where there are different voices that can be heard so that he isn't just gonna be in his own echo chamber?

Peter Kinderman Absolutely. I mean, he is gonna get that in a way from the media, but I don't think very helpfully, I don't think when the media say Burnham should rethink the policy on nationalising the water industry. I don't think they're saying, we'd like to be helpful here. They're just knocking. So no, that's difficult. The civil service will provide him with, with evidence-based solutions that, that take forward his agenda or point out what, where the risks are in his agenda. But yes, he should be open to different perspectives from within his party. Absolutely. And I mean, again, first of all, that's really what we should do. Secondly, when it comes to creative thinking, creativity, including some of the things that, that England, Britain, especially Scotland, actually has been very good at over the years, innovative science is, is been coming out of these islands very strongly. And innovation is thinking differently. It's, it, it's not necessarily accepting that what we've been given is, immutable, and in therapy, I mean, there's, there's a very powerful argument that for people who are stuck emotionally personally, that what you need to do is to talk to somebody in order to get a different perspective from your own lips. So a good therapist will work in such a way that you, as the client will, will think about things in a different way by virtue of talking about them. So I think that idea of shaping policy by having complimentary but alternative perspectives. Yeah, absolutely.

Hilary Jeffs And we

Peter Kinderman government of all the talents.

Hilary Jeffs Yeah, exactly. And you shouldn't be afraid of people who are going to disagree with you because actually being good is about being able to change your mind. And as the facts change, isn't it, I always get very frustrated why, they say, oh, your forecast figures were wrong. You said it was gonna be this and it wasn't that we didn't need to do X, Y, Z. It's like, well, have you not thought that? Maybe we have the forecast. We look at the worst case scenario and then we change course to try and change that outcome for the better. So it really, we should never actually need to be hitting forecast because we should be able to make changes to improve our future.

Peter Kinderman for, yeah. If it were the case, the, the inflation next year was set to rise, then hopefully it won't ever rise. 'cause you'll just make a decision to, to avoid it. Ab Absolutely. I think, think the problem in politics is that, and this is, this comes back to the five, four Prime Ministers in five years or whatever it is, is that, what you would hope, what I would hope as a voter is that we have a government that is taking forward an agenda where if there were somebody in Andy Burnham's cabinet who fancied being Prime Minister, they wouldn't undermine that agenda in order to get there. So one of the, one of the things is, I mean to, in, in, in, you know, to put my political cards on the table, I really hope that Andy Burnham will hand over the keys to number 10 to another senior member of the Labour Party. I hope he's going to pass on the baton of Prime Minister to somebody else that we see coming up

Hilary Jeffs how soon are we talking? I mean, you know what? 50 days Liz trusts, or are we, you're hoping that might happen. What? How long are you

Peter Kinderman No, I'm, I'm hoping, I'm hoping that Andy Burnham is, is, is successful obviously, because I think if you don't hope that Andy Burnham is successful as Prime Minister, then your agenda is more on your politics than on the wellbeing of the citizens of the country. So I hope, I hope the country does really well under Andy as Prime Minister. I hope because I'm, I'm on the political left that, therefore he leads the Labour Party into a successful defence of its majority in, in Parliament. I know because a lot of my friends and acquaintances are involved in politics. I know that the populist right is a real challenge, but I hope that he's still Prime Minister when there's the next election. And then he leads the, I actually don't think there's anything morally wrong at all with Andy Burnham being Prime Minister now by virtue of, into inside, election in the Labour Party, him leading the party in the next election. I hope they get a majority in the next election and halfway through the next Parliament if he wants to hand over to somebody else as Prime Minister. Great. And I think that's entirely democratic. I think that's entirely the way that it should be, because if you change Prime Ministers within a Parliament and while the manifesto is still being enacted in policy, that's less of a disruptive change to the country than have all of those things changed at the same

Hilary Jeffs And

Peter Kinderman day after a general

Hilary Jeffs because we have a prime minister and not a president, we do elect a party in this country. So there is a lot of what you, you are saying, and indeed I do think that we need to move forward in a positive way. And certainly his speech as the incoming labour leader, which, oh, how many days ago was that? Maybe three. It was Friday. Unbelievable. This man has gone, you know, in the space of a month from being the mayor of Greater Manchester to being an mp, to being the leader of the Labour Party. And now a few days later, he's walking through the, the steps and the door of a Downing Street. It's an amazing trajectory, but his whole speech when he became labour leader was one of hope. And that's clearly what he feels is the way forward. That in order to get through these tough times, and believe me, he's not gonna have an easy job. There's a lot of hard decisions that man's gonna have to make. He's going on hope as being the way forward. And that's something that really resonates with me because when I'm talking to people about how to communicate bad news more effectively, it is to actually communicate solutions and not problems because people switch off with problems, but they actually engage. If you talk about solutions and a way forward, what's the psychology there then?

Peter Kinderman Well, I mean, there, there are several things psychologically swirling around in my head that, I mean, one thing to remember is that, well, there, there, there's counterpoints. I suppose human beings right now, especially people living in a place like Great Britain, are without doubt more materially advantaged than human beings ever have been in history. I mean, the way that we're engaging with the world, this is a, a, a subject for a different podcast, but the way that we are engaging with the world now, I is almost detached from our evolutionary past. We are, we are eating food that doesn't have parasites in it. We're generally being able to get in every day. The nutrients that, that we need, our children will almost certainly survive until adulthood will almost certainly live to see grandchildren. I have grown up, in a world where I've been reasonably confident all of my adult life that I won't get constricted, constricted, conscripted into the military, and I probably won't. Now. I, I think that bitter will continue to fight wars, but I, I suspect I won't see tanks rolling down my high

Hilary Jeffs I don't know if we've got Peter as World King Peter as president. We could have Peter as the head of the Armed Forces, Peter, for all the jobs that we need to sort out the world. What do you reckon?

Peter Kinderman Yeah, I, I think I could do a decent job. and you know, and again, joking aside, I, I think I could probably understand most of the briefings that I'm being given. but, and I think that's quite, quite useful in the Prime Minister. to be honest, I mean, I don't want to be rude about any prime ministers or lettuces, but I think there are some people where I really doubted whether a 10 minute briefing by some technical guy in the security services was really received. I suspect it might have kind of like missed a few neurons on the way through. but.

Hilary Jeffs just such a shame 'cause we don't have people who lead this country with the bigly intellect that obviously people are fortunate enough to be ruled by in America. I mean, just, you know that and that's all bad, that we have not managed to elect someone, you know, with such bigly intelligence.

Peter Kinderman No, absolutely. We insist on people having been to university before they actually take the reins of power. It's ridiculous. but to go back, back, back to your question about hope. You know what? Yeah, yeah. Lives now are wonderful, but people are still miserable. And of course what we have is we have brains that are absolutely always looking out for risk, danger threats. I was painting the side of my house yesterday and so I was camping up, scaffolding poles and of course, I mean, I'm

Hilary Jeffs That's a sight in my mind. I'm not gonna get rid of very easy. Well, if I could see pictures in my mind, I've got Aphantasia. I haven't told you that. That's another podcast in itself.

Peter Kinderman I need to look that up. I'll look that up and then I'll pretend to be an expert

Hilary Jeffs Okay, brilliant.

Peter Kinderman but I wasn't scampering, of course, what I was, was terrified and shuttering because you, you climb up a little bit and then you make the mistake of looking down and your brain goes, that's a threat. And once you say that's a threat, it's very difficult to shift away from a bit. it's like baby rabbits, you know? If there was a mother rabbit who gave birth to three baby rabbits and two baby rabbits, saw him a fox and went, oh shit, it's a fox. And the other baby rabbit went, ooh, cuddly red thing. The little baby rabbit who did not see the threat, would not survive to have babies of her own.

Hilary Jeffs So what does this have to do with hope then? If we are there to perceive fruit and to see the the bad stuff? Why is the hope message so effective?

Peter Kinderman Because when people look at newspaper headlines and go down the pub, they like to focus on the threats and the negatives. And they tend to ignore the fact that actually the healthy, the National Health Service is thriving. the, the chances of them having a serious illness being caught by a professional doctor were really quite high. If they engage with the process and stop listening to people like the orange baby in the White House and actually follow medical advice, they're living in the best way possible. But the threats keep coming through. And there are people with agendas who want to take a tiny, tiny but real problem and blow it up so that you are focused on that threat and then your actions will follow the agenda that they want. And you know, when we, when it comes to things like racism, which I think is a major threat in the UK at the moment, not threats of people who happen to not have the paperwork that you think is appropriate for them in their circumstance, but actual genuine racism. I think that that's fueled by people hijacking that psychology of threat pointing threats out to you. And then saying, because you can see this threat now follow my agenda. And I think that's highly dangerous. So I think that to do the opposite and to focus on hope, you know, instead of what's the threat out there? What do you want for your children? What would you like for your children? What sort of community do you want your grandchildren to grow up in? would you like to have an environment where, state backed investment schemes are controlling the land on which our rainwater falls? Or would you want to have some democratic control over the ownership of the, you know, the rain collection lands in the Northwestern? I think people, when they focus on what it was, what it is that they positively want to build in society, may well make more sensible choices.

Hilary Jeffs Let's hope so, and good luck to Andy Burnham for the next however many days he's gonna be leading our country for, and the choices he's got to make. And, before we go, Peter, we've got a couple of things that we are going to try and look at each week on top of the headlines, and that is our concept of the week, our cow. please, would you like to tell us what today's concept of the week is?

Peter Kinderman So the concept of the weak is mirror neurons. And this reflects a little bit what you were saying earlier about exercise. It's about how the brain works. one of the wonderful things about human beings is that we can learn by observing. And I'm a little bit sceptical of the idea of there being a neuron, which is a mirror neuron whose job it is, is to echo what you see in other people. But I do believe that there's plenty of evidence that what happens in my brain when I'm watching somebody kick a football is that my brain is generating the neural connections to mirror what's happening for that person. And, the evidence for that is in, you know, brain scans and so forth where people viewing other people will have neural activity that echoes, what they see. And it, it leads to the idea of why humans can be so good at learning by observing others. So we have brains that can mirror what it is that we see.

Hilary Jeffs this is absolutely wonderful. Not only am I gonna get my full weekly exercise just by thinking about it and dreaming about it, but also I'm gonna learn to be like the next concert pianist just by watching the piano with cordial

Peter Kinderman you don't need to do, you don't need to do any exercise at all. You don't need to physically practise, you just need to get your head straight and then well, no, but what it, what it does do, it doesn't do that at all. Of course it doesn't do that. But what it does do is it, it tells us two things. First of all, it is an architecture of the brain that, we should be very happy to have because it means that we are learners, we can learn rapidly. E even physically, you know, if you watch somebody swing a golf club, your brain will have pre-prepared what it needs to do in order to manipulate the golf club. That's brilliant. It's a brilliant bit of, of cognitive evolution for us. the other thing that it does is it echoes that we are absolutely, and we cannot escape from the fact that we are social animals. So whatever hope you're building in for what society is that you want, if you build a society where your aspirational society doesn't involve interacting with other people, you, you'll be going against the evolutionary history and that will be difficult.

Hilary Jeffs So thank you for our concept of the week. now we've got the Triple T.. That's what we're gonna be doing each week as well. A little bite size, chunk of wellbeing, tips for you to be able to implement to make your life a little bit better. So this week, Peter, what is your triple T your tip to try for everyone?

Peter Kinderman So I would like to possibly remind people of a little, well, I hesitate, hesitate to say meditative technique, but it is a technique for meditation. Meditation, which is 5, 4, 3 to one. So when people are feeling stressed and when people are overwhelmed, a grounding technique is to just sit. You can do all of the bum on seat, feet on floor, feel the earth through stuff if you want. But basically you just take a break and look around you and just say, right, what five things can I see? 'cause obviously you can see a billion things, but what you're doing mentally is you're picking out, you know, a light, a, a window shade, a bit of bird mark on a window pane. Five things that you can see. Then, four things that you can, feel, and then three things that you can hear. And then two things that you can smell and one thing that you can taste and you work through your senses that there were probably 13 senses and not five and blah, blah, blah. But it's just a technique for training your attention to bring to the business. And because I'm talking to you, I lose track of the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 things. And that's what happens if you're, if you're sitting out and you've missed your bus and you're stressed and life's passing you by and you're feeling anxious and it's all going horribly wrong, you go right, 5, 4, 3 to one, what five things can I, can I see you tick off three and then your mind's gone floating away somewhere. So you come back to, what, five things can I say? What four things can I

Hilary Jeffs is that because it starts helping you to breathe more regularly and therefore your ancient brain, your amygdala, your fight flight, or, flea response, freeze response that you actually have as that kept us alive when we were caved dwellers, that disengages with you breathing more rationally, slower, and thinking about things on a more intellectual level, reengages like the other part of your brain, rather

Peter Kinderman It. Yeah.

Hilary Jeffs amygdala part.

Peter Kinderman It absolutely does, but via an interesting mechanism, which is about your ability to focus your attention. So a little bit like the, the idea of, how do you practise taking a football penalty shot? Or how do you even pick up a, a, a mug? we don't know how to, I, I, my, there is, there is nothing I can tell you about the mechanisms of constricting. I don't know which muscle I'm constricting in my fingers in order to grip my mug. I do know how to drink a mug of coffee. I'm very good at drinking mugs of coffee. so when it comes to controlling your breathing and slowing your heart rate, that's a very, very difficult thing for us to do because we genuinely don't know how to do it. What we can do is mobilise our attention. So what we can do is notice that our heart rate is racing and mobilise our attention. We can think, is this a medical emergency? If it were a medical emergency, do I know what to do? If this were a medical emergency, I know what to do, but, and then you can bring in, but I could mobilise my attention to remind myself that I'm just sitting here on a bench. I can always someone help if I want to. Now, all of these thoughts that are going on in your head, I suppose they are, you know, new thoughts that you're having, but the central issue is that you are moving your attention to those parts of the situation, that are relevant to you. And, that has the consequence of calming your heart rate down. So the point about shifting your attention deliberately to think about, and I'm moving my eyes around now in that way, to move your attention to those things in the environment that you can see, it's, it's practising being able to mobilise your attention. When I was up the scaffolding yesterday painting, the reason why I'm now physically feel rubbish today is because my attention was focused on not falling off the damn scaffolding. So I was thinking, have I, yeah. Have I got three? Is my foot on the, is the plank where it should be? I'm mobilising, mobilising my attention in order to keep myself safe. And when you are, when you choose to mobilise your attention deliberately, it does have the effect then of changing your auto autonomic system. So you're obviously right. It's grounding, it's, it, its centering, it returns us to a more physiologically, you know, in terms of our autonomic nervous system, a, a healthy state. But it does it by using your skill to mobilise your attention in order to achieve that.

Hilary Jeffs Brilliant. So five things, four things, three things, two things and one things. All your senses. Engage them to help you with your anxiety and your stress levels. it's been a great week. Thank you very much, Peter, for joining us. Come back again next week when we will discuss more headlines and psychoanalyse the news. Take care.

Peter Kinderman Brilliant. Thank you very much.

Hilary Jeffs The Experience Podcast is hosted by Hilary Jeffs and Peter Kinderman, produced by James Jones at Granary Digital. You can find us on social media, and you can get in touch via email at hello@experiencepodco.com with any questions, comments, or topics you'd like us to cover. And don't forget to leave us a review.