The Adult in the Room

Hilary Jeffs Hello and welcome to Experience. This is the new weekly podcast where we aim to demystify human behaviour by looking at the news headlines. We take those headlines and we stick them on the psychologist couch and not just any psychologist couch. Peter Kinderman, psychologist couch. Peter, good morning. Peter joins me each week so we can go through the headlines and have a discussion about what's going on. And my name is Hilary Jeffs. If you have anything you would like to talk to us about, if you have anything that you would like us to cover, please get in touch. Our email is hello@experiencepodco.com and Dylan got in touch because he, wanted to pull us up slightly. Well, me specifically, we say that we are all about things being factually accurate. That is our ethos of our pod. And yet when we discussed the fastest mile last week, I kind of happened to use a bit of hyperbole. And that hyperbole said that Josh Kerr, simply in order to get his world record, did sort of three minute 42 ice baths and manifested it by writing it down. Clearly, the man did some running. It is a clearly not really moment. This is what's going on. I've got it on my t-shirt. So if you spot us doing a clearly not really moment, you need to get in touch so that we can get officially a wrap on the knuckles. Agreed, clearly, not really, Pete. That's what we're going to have to do Now. We're gonna come on to names in just a minute. Pete a Pete, you're never a Pete, are you? You're a Peter.

Peter Kinderman No. I am a Pete.

Hilary Jeffs Ah.

Peter Kinderman few of my friends and some of my family, but rather interestingly, even people who introduce me as Pete often default back to Peter. I think I'm just a Peter. It's just what's, it's what

Hilary Jeffs Or maybe I just haven't crossed the threshold into that sacred group. People of people who can call you Peach yet. I'll stick with Peter and we'll see how we get on.

Peter Kinderman yeah, it might take a few years.

Hilary Jeffs Well let's hope we're still going in a few years so we can see if that has actually happened. I was at a barbecue last week and my husband did not realise that our neighbour called Marie, actually is Nora, that she changed her name and it's not the first time she's changed her name either because she first changed her name when she went to university. She's now in her seventies, so that would've been her early twenties and she was then Maria from West Side Story. Don't you know, she obviously thought there was some allure to that. It's quite interesting, isn't it? People changing names because they're so central to our identity.

Peter Kinderman Yeah, they're, and, and they're central to our identity. They're, they, they actually convey huge amounts of information. It might not be information. That's good. it's probably information that is in a sense, accurate. So your name as in the name recorded on your birth certificate. Obviously there's, you know, technical links to all the information that the state holds about you, but also it tells you pretty accurately the birth gender that you were assigned at birth. That, I mean, that's a fundamental thing. It, it, in most names, most spaces around the world are, are very clearly either stereotypically male or female, but it tells you other things. It tells you, in, in English culture, it tells you your class. So if somebody is called Joslin or, or Titus or Arain, then it tells you who they're, I mean, in the British Army you've got Tommy, hence that right wing idiot choosing the name Tommy, because a, a hyphenated surname doesn't fit with the working class ethos, but Tommy does. Whereas all of the officers are Rupert. And, and it's true and it is true in, maybe it's a really clearly not really thing, but it is certainly true that names convey huge amounts of information. and, and people do that. So when you meet somebody and you hear that their name is, you know, a, a minter, Lenon yaxley, then you think, oh, alright, well she comes from, from a moneyed background, it might've been that she's chosen and also that she's female. She might've chosen that name in order to convey that image. or she might've been given it a birth. When you know that fact as well, then things change too. So one of my probably boring anecdotes is when I was very young and had just started working, I fell in love with the woman who signed the letters about expenses claims. 'cause I was working in Yorkshire and she signed herself, Gabriela Devic. So immediately

Hilary Jeffs Gabriela Vic. I like it.

Peter Kinderman So I had this, this idea of a sort of pre Norman Conquest, flax and hair, princess of the Northern Powerhouse. and it turned out that she, somebody told me that maybe they were lying. Somebody told me that she'd changed her name from Sharon Pots and I instantly fell out of love with her.

Hilary Jeffs Yes. Now I can see how that happens. My friend at uni hated my name so much that she changed it. She refused to call me Hillary. I think it was at the time of Hillary Manel from neighbours. And she just thought, no, I'm not doing that name. So she called me Hillbilly and that was Shelton to Billy. And I'm not the only Hillary I know who goes by the name Billy. It's just, I didn't choose it. but my name came about quite an interesting way. you probably had never guessed, but my siblings chose my name and they chose Hillary after Father Hillary, their favourite priest. Yes. We did grow up in quite a Catholic background and Anne, which is my middle name, came from Sister Anne and then Father Hillary and Sister Anne left the parish together. I always said that was the reason why I'm no longer religious.

Peter Kinderman Yeah. Yeah.

Hilary Jeffs Yeah. So they eloped, I think. so Father Hillary and Sister Anne, if you want to get in touch and let us know how the last few decades went, we'd love to hear about it.

Peter Kinderman They're probably running an ashra in Vietnam or something.

Hilary Jeffs Something very glamorous.

Peter Kinderman I, I've been extremely fortunate, so I haven't been forced with a number of choices that people have to make. So, and yeah, maybe if I had been named something else, then it would've been difficult. But I, I've always been fortunate in that the, the sort of prejudices of the world seem to favour people like me being male and heterosexual and educated and white. It kind of, things fall into my lap and my name

Hilary Jeffs the holy grail, aren't you? In fact, we can just blame you for everything now.

Peter Kinderman Yeah. I, I

Hilary Jeffs wrong with

Peter Kinderman to have fallen into the cross hairs and, and that's it. But my name kind of fits into that as well. And, and the kinderman bit is quite useful 'cause it's, it's slightly different. So it's

Hilary Jeffs Yeah. Now I wanna talk about, I wanna talk about Kinderman. Okay.

Peter Kinderman but I haven't.

Hilary Jeffs you would be the best present from a chocolate egg, let's just put it that way. I mean, I'd be very happy with that.

Peter Kinderman I convinced my colleague's secretary for about six years that I was the heir to the Kinder egg. and, and she got really loppy about things like, you know, why am I claiming expenses when I can clearly afford it? And we just carried it on for about six years. Yeah.

Hilary Jeffs Great. Well now we know what you are like, but why Kinderman and not as you clearly are. It is a name that has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Kinder man. You are a kinder man.

Peter Kinderman that is a very, well, I think there's a, a, a clear answer to that, which is it's, German in nor origin, so, you know,

Hilary Jeffs I kinder. Oh, so it's child man. Okay.

Peter Kinderman child man.

Hilary Jeffs that also is a self-fulfilling prophecy for most men. I know.

Peter Kinderman Well, yeah, and that's probably true. yeah, so I, I think that none of the people down the male line have ever questioned the fact that it was pronounced in the German form all the way down. So that's what it is. People very, very rarely, say kinderman. I dunno why, but there you go.

Hilary Jeffs You know, just like the royal family, Peter is descended from Germans. There you go.

Peter Kinderman Yeah, yeah,

Hilary Jeffs always comes around.

Peter Kinderman some Germans.

Hilary Jeffs So in terms of the psychology about names, because I've chosen never to change my name when I've got married. just because why, Hmm. If I was gonna change my name, I think I'd go back through all the matriarchs and find as far back as I could, the earliest maiden name, just so that I could carry on that line. but instead, no, I am carrying on my father's line and yet my mother's name probably shouldn't say it, should I? 'cause you'll be able to get in all my bank accounts. But it was much nicer than Jeff's, it was Greensmith, which is quite nice, quite lovely. Clearly shows their roots. They must have been graces at some point or another.

Peter Kinderman Or organisers of modern festivals.

Hilary Jeffs Oh, that's so much more me. No, I think a shopkeeper's probably more like it anyway. So how do people cope when they do change their name?

Peter Kinderman Well, people change their names quite often. And of course, traditionally women have changed their name at marriage and that, that's the thing. People also incidentally change their name when they get doctorates and people change their name when they get elevated to the House of Lords. so people do change their name and, and the idea of there, there's all sorts of variants, isn't it? There's the substituting your middle name for your first name. So there's quite a lot of communities.

Hilary Jeffs My

Peter Kinderman the Irish community is relatively, it's relatively common that the first name is the one that goes on the birth certificate, but the second name is the one that the family always call you. And that happens quite a lot now. It really isn't a name change, but it's a choice of how you refer to yourself. Then there's the

Hilary Jeffs you said about your name being really typical about, it being sort of white and male and, you know, educated. What about names that are sort of more androgynous? Because of course, you know, everyone knows I'm a woman and they can make assumptions, but what would happen if I had one of those sort of gender neutral names like Chris or something like that?

Peter Kinderman Well, the, the evidence is that were you to apply for a job using the name, a assuming that the potential employers aren't following good employment practises and being named neutral and so forth, you know, anonymous and so forth. If people were to see your name and you were to use Hillary, you've got a lower chance of being selected for interview and getting the job if than, if you use the word Chris, because we live in a male world and men are preferred over women. Sorry. I don't think it's right, but I think it's true. and therefore, you know, at least over the past few years, people called Chris have been more likely to be called to interview than people called Christine. So gender neutral names tend to favour women. it's also true that the prejudices that I had about Gabriela Devic ring True that, you know, people called well people with what might be considered, sorry.

Hilary Jeffs like Sandra Pots. Sandra

Peter Kinderman Yeah. Yeah. So, so names that are more common in people who are, lower down the income scale. And, you know, again, it's not right, but it is true that statistical fact in a way gets reflected in people's prejudices. And, and that happens. So, you know, you more likely get to Sandhurst or to be offered a place at Oxford if you've got the name that fits with their expectations of you. And, and we need to work against those prejudices. Of course, changing your name is a way of working both against and with those prejudices. And, and I find, I mean, I, I like the idea of changing your name out. I personally don't want to, and that's also partly a, an, a professional thing. That stuff that I've done is associated with this name. So were I to use another name, it's deliberately to avoid being

Hilary Jeffs Maybe after this you'll be changing it. Who knows Peter.

Peter Kinderman do have a fake name for booking restaurants, but, and, and leaving

Hilary Jeffs Are you gonna share?

Peter Kinderman No. Obviously if I share it, it gets linked and that's it. So there's a

Hilary Jeffs John, isn't it? Elton John is going by a different name and you are using Elton's.

Peter Kinderman yeah. That's it. Yeah. Yeah.

Hilary Jeffs right. We must move on to the headlines. So, the first headline, 'cause you've been spotting the headlines this week, Peter, what is the first headline we're gonna discuss?

Peter Kinderman Well, I really liked the, clips I watched of the US Senator, Ossoff is his name. It wasn't his name, was it Ossoff? interviewing Mike Hege, the defence secretary about,

Hilary Jeffs No, no, no. Not defence Secretary. Is he Secretary of War? they changed.

Peter Kinderman Names are important. Yeah. And if you want to convey the image that your business is to defend the Constitution and be a beacon of freedom and peace in the world, then change the, I was gonna swear about just, but that's a name thing, isn't it? Yeah. We, yeah. We are neo fascists and we hate justice. Let's change the name to reflect it. So, so Ossoff's interviewing of Hegseth Hegseth, their, their names are difficult for me to pronounce. was I think a masterclass. And certainly it was

Hilary Jeffs Do you know, it absolutely was a communications MasterCard. So Ossoff started off the interrogation by thanking the personnel who've been serving in the war and commending them on their bravery. So of course that immediately is putting HEGs on the back because it certainly, with the next person who interrogated him, he did all that sort of fake, like, I can't believe you are, you know, denigrating our armed service men and women. although I think they've cut out most of the women now, haven't they? 'cause they just need white men in the military anyway, so Ossoff did brilliantly. So he started off there and then he got heer to confirm factually some points that he had indeed asked for the amount of money he was asking for to continue this war. And then he spent the next, what, six, seven, questions tying Hegseth down to the words that he'd used, you know, whether he'd said that victory was theirs at some point in the war and they'd totally decimated the Iran military and made them redundant and he exit actually had nowhere to go. And it really reminded me of sort of when I'm helping people prepare for media interviews, you basically, if you'll get asked a difficult question the first time you asked the question, we advise them to do their A, B, C answer. Bridge to control and control is like your positive message. And then someone, a journalist say, would reword it and ask you it again and again, you do answer bridge control. You talk about something different, but still related to what's going on. And then if you're asked the same question but reworded the third time, you just give the a and you sit nice and calmly. You're not getting angry or anything like that, and that's how you handle it. But it's different when you're in front of politicians. They've got their five minutes, they've got you on the ropes and they're gonna keep going. And the thing about he is for all his communications experience and the fact that he used to be a TV personality, the fact is he's not a communications professional. He hasn't worked out what his key points actually are apart from to sort of do dog whistle politics. And the fact is, you cannot polish a turd. Communications will not get you out of a tight spot. It's business practise being good that gets you out the tight spot. And we all know that war was not good business politics or any type of practise was it? It was not good.

Peter Kinderman The, the whole in exchange was, was a masterclass. So one of the things that happened, I think in that was your, your final point, the, the stupidity and cruelty and and ineffectiveness of Trump's war. So Ossoff by asking a few questions, in a sense, it didn't matter too much what Heskes answers to those questions were. The point is that the message came across, you know, you have failed and you are aimless came across in the questions. I think it's

Hilary Jeffs you are also wrong, like multiple times. The man was wrong.

Peter Kinderman E every so often we, we obviously, we psychologists get asked about, you know, lie detection and body language and so forth. And I've done a secondhand, I've worked with people who've worked with, I've actually worked with people who've worked with the security services to do interrogation. And, and there's a very simple way to tell if somebody is lying, which is you, you contrast their words with objective facts, that that's how you know if somebody's lying. What you don't do is we did their body language and as a bit of forensic

Hilary Jeffs that looking to the left and looking to the right one is remembering and one is lying. Isn't true.

Peter Kinderman It's utter bol. The, the official verdict of the, I think it's American Psychological Association, but it's also the British psychological, society as well. Is, is, is that, lie detector tests have zero validity.

Hilary Jeffs Well, because actually you can control your response, can't you? You can control how you

Peter Kinderman your response in various ways, but also it is true to an extent that, if you are a person trying to cover up a lie and you are confronted at that moment with the need to cover up that lie, your blood pressure and heart rate will rise. But so would an innocent person confronted with the possibility of five years in federal jail? So it, it, it tells you this person is slightly nervous now, and, you know,

Hilary Jeffs And I always find that the quicker someone gets to anger, you can often tell when they feel trapped, even if they're not lying, they're certainly trapped and worried about how they're gonna respond.

Peter Kinderman so Ossoff

Hilary Jeffs O

Peter Kinderman in Ossoff,

Hilary Jeffs O soft.

Peter Kinderman names, you see names. Ossoff did that. So what he was doing with Hesketh is he said, here's an incontrovertible fact. If Hesketh had said, I did not say that, then he would've produced a printout of

Hilary Jeffs Course he couldn't do

Peter Kinderman there it is. So, so right from the beginning it's, it's both forensic in terms of, you know, police interviewing, of people being confronted with the fact that there is a disparity between what they say and the truth. It is like a defence lawyer, so forensically in terms of the legal processes, a brilliant tactic. Instead of saying, defend yourself, which would allow Hesketh to defend himself, he said, here's, he did it deadpan. And what I thought was.

Hilary Jeffs of spoke slightly more loudly to basically cut Hegseth off, but

Peter Kinderman He used,

Hilary Jeffs coolness. It was great.

Peter Kinderman he used the, frame that he had. So if Hesketh had been interviewed, you know, walking by a journalist, he would've used that platform. He could control the pace of his delivery, control, how much he said he could have just said fake news, but he was in front of a congressional hearing. So going, that's fake news doesn't answer the question. He's, he, I mean, he dodged most of it. And then what Ossoff did was he took the dodging as, as part of it. And I think the, that, all of that is brilliant. But your point right at the end there about, you know, what message was conveyed, he hesketh conveyed the message of, you are absolutely right. I'm a total idiot, and my politics and principles are utterly

Hilary Jeffs But we are biassed.

Peter Kinderman no, that, no, that seriously is just a statement of fact. That's what he conveyed and ossoff by simply asking some open-ended questions conveyed with the adults in the room. And your war is futile and pointless, and you failed in all of your objectives. The other thing is he stayed calm. Now, I can't stay calm having a conversation with you, but Ossoff stayed

Hilary Jeffs What does that say?

Peter Kinderman It says I shouldn't be member of Congress, or indeed the police ator.

Hilary Jeffs Okay,

Peter Kinderman mean, there's many things I can do in life,

Hilary Jeffs well we've already ruled in World King, world President, but we are ruling out now police officer and congre Congressman. Yeah. It's too low for you anyway. Yeah,

Peter Kinderman beekeeper. I'm not very good at that either, but you know, I'll stick, I'll stick. But no, it was a masterclass. It was also about controlling not exactly your emotions. Ossoff wasn't I, I'm reasonably confident he wasn't controlling his emotions. He was controlling his behaviour. He knew what he wanted to achieve and he knew that his stone cold fury at the idiocy and wickedness of the people in front of him is best conveyed with Stone Cold Fury. So he did it, and he didn't get bluing and he didn't use names, and he didn't say, oh, come on. He just, he controlled his agenda and he controlled

Hilary Jeffs And with the next congressman, you can see that Hegseth took the opportunity in that changeover to the next person to interrogate him. He then got out all his bluster and his annoyance and he got cross in this fake outrage and all the rest of it. but no, he couldn't manage it against os of at all. Right. So moving on to our next headline. you've chosen Natalie Fleet resigning. Now, Natalie Fleet is such an interesting person. She's only in her early forties, but as a child, she was raped and she had a child and her eldest child as the product of that rape. And she loves dearly. And this woman is absolutely amazing. She first stood for Parliament in 2019 and had to stop because of the amount of abuse that she was getting and the amount of, fear there was for her safety and her wellbeing. And then she finally got into pa into Parliament for Bolsover in 2024. And when Jess Phillips resigned as a safeguarding minister, in came Natalie Fleet because she's got all this experience and very interesting about Natalie Fleet. One of the things in reading up about how I found most interesting is that she says it's really easy for her. It's clear cut, the statutory rape, the, actions that led to her having her first child because there's her birth certificate, factual evidence, her child's birth certificate, factual evidence, and the child's date of birth. All of those things factually add up to statutory rape. And yet the other things that she's experienced, just like loads of other women up and down this country and across the world, all of a sudden it's like, well, what were you wearing? What were you doing out at that time on your own? How did you stay with that man? Why? You know, and all of that becomes shades of grey. And she was really highlighting that when she stood down, but she stood down because she's been triggered. it was the Giselle, Pico stuff, you know, this investigation into women being raped whilst they've been drugged by often intimate partners. That was the straw that broke her back. And those are her words. And being triggered whilst it's bandied about across the internet all the time at the moment actually, including Don Jr's book, was called Triggered. Can you believe that when he got it out, she's actually sticking clear to what triggered is all about, isn't it being triggered from past trauma? Can you explain to us, Peter, a little bit about being triggered and about triggering from a psychological perspective?

Peter Kinderman Well, I mean, it, it, the, the whole thing triggering trauma, the huge. Epidemic of, of attacks on women, not only in this country, but but across the world. The, the whole thing is a, is a, is a massive topic. I mean, triggering is, is in psychological terms. I mean, it, it, it's a word and it probably means lots of things, and there's probably a bit of controversy over it. And so, and I'll talk about this a a little bit, in a minute maybe. But, of course we're reminded of things that are distressing and when we're reminded of things that are distressing, I guess the best way to think about triggering is both in terms of, of your cognitions, the things that you're thinking about in terms of your emotions, and therefore your ability to remain focused on the things that, that, that matter to you, become a little bit impaired. The, the reminder of something important is triggering in the sense that it, it becomes a massive stimulus. It's, it's a threat response. I mean, I think I might have mentioned the idea that, you know, if a mother rabbit gives birth to three baby rabbits and one of those baby rabbits goes, oh, it's a fox. Yeah, not terribly important. That little baby rabbit will not survive to have rabbits of our own. We are absolutely evolutionary programmed to spot threats. Focus on them, attend to them, and do something about them. And so if you've been in an intensely threatening situation, then stimulate the, remind you of that threat will grab your attention and will have emotional and cognitive responses. and that's difficult for people. And you can be walking down the street, somebody will say something and you're just off on a tangent. And that's triggering. And, and that's important. And it's important to recognise that that will happen for people. And to, and to respect that. I think the idea, the ideas in my head about, about fleet's experience and resignation there, there were just loads of spinoffs. So, so the first is, I, I know nothing about the circumstances of her appointment, but my view is that people like Fleet, for various reasons should be absolutely spotted for responsibility in high office. And it make it, it makes her more admirable in my mind that she can spot the issues associated with that appointment, but I would simply divert her to a position of similar responsibility in an area where her clear attributes will make her valuable for the other job, and she can avoid the negative consequences of the job. I mean, I just think it means that Burnham should identify as the person who will get the good job next time there's an appropriate one available to her. I think admirable response, if it's the case. So one of the things, just a, as a, as a diversion of course, is if you are a judge in the high court, you can listen to witness statements, you can listen to victim impact statements. You can appreciate the evidence, but we want the judges to sit back and not, not unemotionally and not, not,. Clinically, but we want them objectively to weigh up all of the issues. If Fleet was saying that the issues were such that she felt she was in danger of losing her objectivity, excellent. Then, then, then, yes, somebody else probably should have that job if it was impacting on her mental health where she was going home. Traumatised. I, I once spoke to somebody who, whose job was to filter, user produced videos for the BBC. So people would send in videos. Her job was to filter it and she said, I'm never gonna have children. Now Jobs that have that impact on you are jobs that we need to protect people when they're in. Right. So, so if Fleet is protecting her mental health, then she's, you know,

Hilary Jeffs She's

Peter Kinderman example of other people.

Hilary Jeffs she described her resignation as putting her own life jacket on first. And, and I think that's absolutely brilliant. And the fact is what an absolute strong woman to be able to come from that background and all the trauma that she's experienced to get into office to make a difference for other people. In terms of trigger, it's actually, it's comes directly from the trigger on a gun, which used to be called a trigger and that comes from the Dutch treking, which means to pull. And it first started being used is my understanding is around after one of the war, one of the big wars, because people were coming back from the war and they were being highly sensitive to loud noises or things that took them back to the battlefield. And that's where it actually comes from. You know, whether it's a smell of some smoke or something like that, that just took them straight back to that incident. it is such a strong emotion to be triggered when you have trauma and basically that triggering is either to say, like you said, keep you alive. It's the fear response that does make you safe, or indeed it is showing that you still need to do some psychological work, isn't it, on the trauma that

Peter Kinderman Absolutely. And, but you know what I mean? Again, I mean that, that it's the same point in a way, but it's just a, a, a lovely way of referring back to fleet. I, I, I just think she seems, an admirable human being on the basis of, of this experience, on the grounds that she noticed something that was having a consequence for her, and she did the right thing in response. She didn't cover it up. She didn't, she didn't act inappropriately. She spotted it and, and she responded. And I, I think that's an admirable, role model. I think it also, as a sort of trivial point, I think it, it's also good to keep in the public domain the fact that there are so many offences against women and Yeah. And children. And, we need to remember. Yeah. I mean, you know, while extradition hearings are continuing in the, in the States, we need to remember that there are a lot of men out there who attack women.

Hilary Jeffs Yes, there are a lot of men who attack women. and in my experience, it is usually cis men who attack women and not actually trans women who attack women. right. Moving on. The last story that you've picked today is to talk about Andy Burham. Yes. We're Back to Politics. My favourite subject, and about him allowing Trump to use the bases to make a strike on a round, which actually happened this week. and it's not a new policy, is it? It is a continuation, really, from where Stama was, but it does raise an interesting question about how Burnham is gonna handle Trump because there's lots of leaders, of organisations and countries who have tried a myriad of ways of how to make it work. I mean, if you listen to the rest of his politics, USA, the mooch would definitely say that, you know, Burnham is a winner and Trump likes winners, although he doesn't like people who take attention from him. So Burnham might be up in his mind already. what do you think is gonna go on here in terms of how Burnham's gonna handle Trump?

Peter Kinderman I don't know. and, obviously I'm not, party to, any of the discussions in the corridors of power that are going on at the moment, but it does strike me that again, there, there's issues of, I suppose there's issues of authenticity. So I, I look at, wealthy bankers connected to corrupt, professional gamblers, grinning in the lift with Trump and posing with flashing teeth at all of the gold and glitz. And I think my fantasy includes doing the exact opposite of that. My fantasy is pretty close to Hugh Grant in Love Act. Is it love Actually, well, one of them anyway, where he basically says, yeah, no, you can just, you can, you can

Hilary Jeffs Jog on. Yeah.

Peter Kinderman and that's my fantasy. but even for me, and I can be a bit silly, I know that those are fantasies. So the idea of thinking if I were Prime Minister, what I would do is I'd, I'd blow a raspberry down the phone and then I'd put the phone down on him. 'cause that's what I would do. And I see to be, I mean, quite a lot of my friends are quite left wing. And I see in conversations on social media and conversations in real life, people go, oh, Burnham, you know, kind of, he says he's gonna stand up to Trump, but then he let him basically, collaborate in, in, in war crimes by allowing our basis to be used for his war planes. And you go back to the fantasy of Yeah. What I would do is, and I think that's childish because if it were the case that Britain were to take a particularly antagonistic attitude towards Trump, then people would suffer.

Hilary Jeffs Yeah,

Peter Kinderman Just people would suffer.

Hilary Jeffs you're right, although you just don't want the bullies to win, but I think Carney's done it quite well. Carney

Peter Kinderman it very well.

Hilary Jeffs he's got to work to a certain extent, but he's not gonna be bullied. I mean, they think Carney was the man responsible for getting Trump to back down on those stupid tariffs that went across everywhere because, Kearney caused a run on the bond markets. But, certainly Trump is back after Kearney is in. He with the, 50% tariffs

Peter Kinderman So this is what I think probably Burnham will do, and I think this is, what I would hope he would do. So I read a, an article, I think it might have been in The Economist. There's an article about, quite overt statements made by European and other world leaders about how they work collectively handling Trump. And the article, I do not know where myself, whether this is true, but the journalist writing in this article said they are overtly talking to each other at Davos and G seven and so forth, and they're saying this is our strategy for handling Trump. so, one of the messages was that Mark Rutter, I think he's head of nato,

Hilary Jeffs Yes..

Peter Kinderman his, his persona with Trump was to say, absolutely yes. Here are the technical issues. Trump would get bored and then one of the other world leaders would say, come on mate, let's distract you with something shiny probably made of gold

Hilary Jeffs Well, Rutter's approach has surely been to, lick the ass of, Trump. I think isn't that really

Peter Kinderman but he, he doesn't have electors that, you know, a voting public that would tell him that he needs to stand up to the

Hilary Jeffs Infantino as well.

Peter Kinderman yeah. So they're taking, they're taking different roles in the careful management of, of Trump's yeah.

Hilary Jeffs But that's quite interesting.

Peter Kinderman what I would hope, yeah, so you see, what I would hope Andy Perham would do is, is he would have a conversation collectively with the other world leaders that says something along the lines of, I cannot in conscious, go along with this. I am going to oppose it. How can I fit in with our strategy? And like, you know, I dunno, as you know, I'm not really into team games, but like a football team, you go, right? The fantasy is that you run up to the end of the pitch and then you head in the winning goal. But actually you'll be offside each time. Please don't do that. It's a fantasy. This is not Roy of the rovers. You are not the only person on the pitch. And what I hope is that the civil servants in Whitehall say, if you want to follow this principled approach to managing the major threats to freedom and prosperity that Trump presents, we collectively should do this. And your role in it to do that, and the way that you could swing it with the electorate who might not understand is to have this presentational strategy. And I hope he gets it right. And like Ossoff, I think, I hope that he accepts the real politic, that when you've got a major world superpower with treaty obligations to them, you can't behave like a schoolboy. But you can say, these are the limits on our behaviour. And this is, these are the parameters in which we're working.

Hilary Jeffs Stama was sort of a bit commended on his approach to world affairs. but they sort of made a lot, both the media and the opposition about perhaps he was being a bit too kind to Trump and things like that. And was he the Trump whisperer and everything. But what I really liked about Star's approach was he was never rude to Trump, but every time he had to say, I don't agree with you, he would agree. And he would say, well actually, you know, that guy Burnham is my friend. Or, he would also a straight after Zelensky getting that mooring in the White House. Zelensky was here, meeting the King and meeting, K Stama. So the action spoke of an intent of where we were going, even though we weren't trying to point score or go down to Trump's level. And I thought that was really clever. And I hope Burnham does continue that strength of saying, I'm still going to defend Greenland. I'm still gonna defend, Zelensky and the Ukrainian people, because actually that's where everyone banding together, including Canada and New Zealand. And Australia. That's the holy grail, isn't it?

Peter Kinderman so I think there's another point I'd like to make, which is, which is both politics and human psychology. and I suppose it's about, it's about authenticity to an extent, but it's about the principles to which people are, are, are acting and it's about balancing various principles. so I, I think the, the, you know, I, I'm not in favour of, of censorship. I'm generally in favour of letting people do what they want. I absolutely wouldn't want young children to have access to some of the social media apps that are available on their phone.

Hilary Jeffs Or porn,

Peter Kinderman yeah.

Hilary Jeffs you know, frankly.

Peter Kinderman so then you get, you know, it is very, it's kind of a simple point, which is there's a principle of autonomy, freedom, liberty, trust. Those are decent principles. Protecting children is a bit of an important principle. So when it comes to kind of him and, and Trump, what, what you were talking about is, there are some, there are some things that I think are quite important, like, like conveying the message that I do not agree with you. Like standing up to racists, like calling out misogyny, like, pointing out people's errors in their logic and they're good, right? They're, they're good things. And so you have fantasies about, you know, if I was at the White House and Trump said that I would say X, Y, and Z. But there are also other principles like trying to maintain some sort of forward momentum on controlling climate change, like trying to have some sort of international dialogue about conflicts that involve the death of civilians. And so if Burnham is aiming for some sort of trivial pub parlour game of what I would say to Trump, I would be a little bit cautious. What I would prefer him to do is to be the adult in the room who is trying his best to keep focused on the principles that I hold dear.

Hilary Jeffs Absolutely. I tell you what is gonna be fun though, is, Miller Band as foreign secretary meeting Trump. I think that could be quite amusing and on names. Wonder if Burnham, got Ed but thought he was buying David. I mean, you know, David at one point was ti to come back to be foreign secretary. so are they getting Ed to be just like, you know, proxy for David? Who knows which Milli band brother is actually going to be there?

Peter Kinderman well, all I could say is that, that given the state of, Donald j Trump's frontal lobes, they could probably start with Ed, then slip in David, and he probably wouldn't notice.

Hilary Jeffs That is a really good point for us to end on

Peter Kinderman a job share, couldn't they?

Hilary Jeffs No, but you know, he's got bigly intelligence, that man, and he's just acing being able to, name an ine. That's how good he is these days on his psychometric tests.

Peter Kinderman I ce I received my professional qualification in clinical psychology about 30 years ago, and I've, I've practised continuously. I've seen him talk.

Hilary Jeffs Okay. Enough said Right before we go, we have just time for our concept of the week and our Triple T concept of the week. Then, Peter, what are we talking about today?

Peter Kinderman Well, we're, we're talking about, authenticity, and we're talking about, authenticity between, between friends, and we're talking about authenticity and relationships, and we're talking about authenticity, when we're choosing other people. There is that famous quote, I think from one of the Mark's brothers, the comedians that, you know, if you can fake authenticity, then, then you've got it made. and I suppose there's also the, the issue of, what happens in relationships where you realise that somebody has, has lied to you or let you down. And, and so, so I think the, the whole principle about it I is about, the principle of authenticity, and I suppose the idea of trust. This relates to mirror nuances, I suppose, in that you look at other people, you see their behaviour, you think about what they're doing. The the trust comes from, I, I, I'm, I'm always constructing and in inferring what my sort of model of reality is. And I have to make assumptions about your behaviour. And I make assumptions that I, I make assumptions that Andy Burnham is negotiating in my best interest on because I can do nothing else. And authenticity is the way of building trust so that you can then rely on that person. You can rely on that person to look after your daughter when you're not there. You can rely on that person, to make sure that if they go to a festival and they're left behind, that somebody's got their back and make sure that they're not on their own coming home.

Hilary Jeffs and I mean, Trump being his authentic self is not gonna help you want him to be babysitting your daughter. Let's face it.

Peter Kinderman And then it comes back to the issue of names. So then you get has is somebody. Playing something rather dubious because they've changed their identity and why, or have they selected a name and an identity that reflects who they truly are. So the changing of name and the selection of your name to reflect your honest. Now, I never met Gabrielle De and it's quite possible I missed out on meeting some sort of Saxon beauty with flax and hair and, and air to the, the, the lost kingdom of, of Wessex. so, so I got turned off by what I.

Hilary Jeffs surely Yorkshire Devic.

Peter Kinderman Well, yes. 1, 1, 1 would assume so. Yeah. But yeah, so anyway, authenticity is, is what, and

Hilary Jeffs And from a communications

Peter Kinderman way in life just by being you.

Hilary Jeffs you do. And you're the best you and you're a rubbish someone else. That's the way I look at it. You're at least only ever be second best if you try and be someone else other than yourself. But stress does mean that some people find it very difficult to be their authentic self. I always felt that one of the reasons, Hillary Clinton did not win back in the day in 2016 was because she struggled to know which of her authentic selves 'cause we're never just one thing. She was a successful politician and a successful mom and all the rest of it, but she didn't know how to present herself to the people, and therefore they didn't see her as being authentic. Well, that, and Trump had his slogan, which was, well, no, it wasn't Trump's well, crooked. Hillary of course, did her in, but her slogan was, love trump's hate. And you're like, why have you got Trump in the actual slogan? Surely you're just making sure everyone says, love trump. We love Trump, not trump hate. Anyway, I thought that was a ridiculous slogan. So authenticity is our concept of the week. Very important to try and just be yourself. And it's a bit like if you're going in for a job interview, you are interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. And if you don't get the job, likely you weren't gonna be a good fit and you weren't gonna be very happy there anyway. but if you can get yourself feeling confident enough in that scenario so you can be yourself, you've got a much better chance of actually getting the job, that would be the best one for you. Triple T then that was almost a triple TA tip to try a bite side chunk of wellbeing. What are we talking about today?

Peter Kinderman well, it, it, it relates to, to ossoff and authenticity, which is, if you're in a tight spot, ask a question

Hilary Jeffs Oh

Peter Kinderman you're con conversing with people, ask a question. I, I apologies if there's a

Hilary Jeffs Liars do that as well though, to be fair, because they don't want to answer their own question that they've been asked, so they ask their own

Peter Kinderman But no, it's things like social anxiety stuff. I was, I was once in, in, in, Norwich examining a PhD thesis, and I was out to dinner on the, on the evening. It was Valentine's Day. So I was on my own in a restaurant, and I observed a, footballer. So he was Norwich City presumably. But anyway, talking to this woman who was clearly very, very interested in him, but he was completely tongue tied and she kept on reaching into the conversation with extremely welcome invites and he couldn't say anything at all. And I was so tempted when she went to the loo to, to run over and go ask her some open-ended questions. It could be, you know, what would be your favourite animal?

Hilary Jeffs Not

Peter Kinderman where would you like to go and ask questions. So, my tip of the week would be, you know, if you, if you feel kind of uncomfortable or, or, or stuck or socially anxious, or dunno where it's going, you ask open-ended questions. And if people ask you difficult questions, then you go, oh my word. That's a very difficult question. Why did you ask that up against? Always ask

Hilary Jeffs I like that. It won't work in media interviews, just if

Peter Kinderman It won't work in, in media interview. And that's why Hesketh struggled. 'cause Ossoff could, it wouldn't work with me and you.

Hilary Jeffs Yeah,

Peter Kinderman it wouldn't be, it wouldn't work.

Hilary Jeffs we now know why you and I do what we do 'cause we like to ask questions and we got quite good at asking questions. Right. That's a nice tip. I like that. That's it for this week. If you would like to get in touch and let us know what we should be talking about next week, then our email is hello@experiencepodco.com if you've got a concept of the week that you'd like us to explore or if you have a clearly not really moment where we have said something a little bit hyperbolic and it's slightly wrong, then please do get in touch as well. Have a great week. Thank you, Peter.

Peter Kinderman My pleasure. Thank you, Hillary.